RTO or GTFO
It's, anyone can get it. Just put your kid in school and see if he brings one home.
Bryan Cantrill:I don't know how to say it, but but whatever illness has afflicted you has given you enormous. Yeah. I just think you sound you sound both, I mean, obviously, serious, but also, like, mellow and chill, you know.
Adam Leventhal:Well, that's the whiskey.
Adam Leventhal:That that part's the whiskey.
Bryan Cantrill:It that what it is. I I feel like I I, I will do whatever you tell me to do, basically. I feel that Oh. You could yeah. No.
Bryan Cantrill:Really. This is your opportunity. I with the whatever it is about this voice is just going, this is Perfect.
Adam Leventhal:I'm good. I mean, you sound really good. You know what I want. Let's end on time.
Bryan Cantrill:There are things I cannot do for you.
Adam Leventhal:Do you know how long our last episode on this topic
Bryan Cantrill:was? I I do know because I listened to it over the weekend and I was also shocked. It was an hour and 57 minutes or whatever. It was and I had the same reaction. I was like, Jesus.
Bryan Cantrill:Did you relisten to this? So this is the the future of work that we did, like two and a half years ago.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. And it should be said, we're talking about remote work. So at the time, we are we are now in
Adam Leventhal:the future.
Bryan Cantrill:Oh, you've given it away now. I was I mean, it feels like at the top already? I mean, are we gonna write a lot of context? Like, look, I feel also having already listened to that, anyone that complains about our audio or the fact that we don't actually explain what we're talking about should go listen to Oxide and Friends from years past, where the audio was worse, and I don't feel we got to the topic any sooner.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. I mean or even better. Don't I wouldn't do that. Don't do that. You don't need to do I thought
Bryan Cantrill:it was good, actually.
Bryan Cantrill:I thought it was a good discussion. I like that.
Adam Leventhal:It was good. Our audio was atrocious.
Bryan Cantrill:It was Twitter spaces.
Adam Leventhal:It was Twitter spaces, and it would have been about half an hour shorter if we weren't discussing the various audio problems we were also experiencing.
Bryan Cantrill:We were discussing a lot of audio problems. Yeah. No. That that that was coming up a lot. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. But I thought it was good. I you know, there was something I was wondering if you heard as well. So, Lucas known that your friend Lucas exactly. Or, Lucas described being an Apple and using, I believe, Webex for all communications.
Adam Leventhal:I'm It's
Bryan Cantrill:either Webex or go to meeting. Whatever it was, I my brain. Those are kind of in the same bucket in my in my brain. Believe it was WebEx. And he described a feature in WebEx where there one of these new AI features where it would identify a hand gesture and then emit an emoji.
Bryan Cantrill:And I'm like, is this where Apple got this, I think regrettable idea? I Yeah. No. Did did this features is is the is the origin of this feature in some other species in Webex? This is, like, cross the species boundary into your MacBook?
Adam Leventhal:Maybe. And, I mean, I think we all went through this experience and maybe we still are of of our coworkers, like, doing some upgrade and then making some hand gesture and be like, what is going on?
Bryan Cantrill:Like, where is that coming from? The, I don't know. Anyone who is regretting the fact that we gave the topic at the top is now feeling much more comfortable that we're we're so far into the ditch on something completely unrelated. But the problem with that feature and so the feature for those who are unaware, the feature is that if you if you hold a gesture, the Mac will add a seemingly a very deep level. It's like seemingly like in the firmware for the camera.
Bryan Cantrill:It is not happening at the level of, you know, the Google Meet that you're in. You if you hold the gesture, you will an emoji will explode. And this makes sense, I think, for thumbs up. Like, thumb thumbs up, it makes sense. And they just needed to stop at thumbs up.
Bryan Cantrill:They need to be like, you know what? Thumbs up is the one that people want. That's the one that people makes sense. People hold the thumbs up. When they hold the thumbs up next to their face, they mean thumbs up.
Bryan Cantrill:It's kind of a dumb feature. But the one that that we they they wanted to go further, and they did other things. And this is where they just the mistakes compounded. Because they got something that is that will emit I believe if you hold your fingers up like jazz hands, it will do balloons.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. There's a there's a whole litany of them. Double thumbs up, like, gives you some, some like light show. Oh, no. Pardon me.
Adam Leventhal:That's if you do like double, I tell my son it's the double quiet coyote because like that's the hand signal he knows, but like double kind of like rock on.
Bryan Cantrill:Double quiet coyote crisscross applesauce? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It does.
Bryan Cantrill:And I would love to see remember when Game of Thrones, had that the Red Wedding episode of Game of Thrones? And there was
Bryan Cantrill:a
Bryan Cantrill:bit of a meme where people would video other people watching this particular episode that had this huge twist in it. Yeah. And I wouldn't you watch a collection of people of of organizations trying to figure out what the fuck just happened with the balloons that just went off on someone's camera? Yeah. Like I could I could watch hours of that.
Adam Leventhal:The reaction of someone accidentally, like, responding with balloons and and then I mean, it's kinda mortifying. Right? Like, in a business setting
Bryan Cantrill:like, Steve, what did you just do? I it's like, I didn't do anything. It's like, that's not true. We all saw it. Like, you a balloon just exploded out of you.
Bryan Cantrill:So it's like you definitely did something. There's there's victim blaming, gaslighting. I mean, it's still the works. Yeah. It was, so I wondered if anyway, they may have gotten that from so they they could have gotten that from Webex is what I'm trying to say.
Bryan Cantrill:Where that Oxide and Friends, there's a clue in an early Oxide and Friends episode about the Wuhan bat for this feature being actually Wow. Being being, from Webex. That's the one. So that's the first thing I gotta say. The second thing I gotta say is I I just when I go back, as long as we are as long as we are, where the hell are we, our episode from last week.
Bryan Cantrill:First of all, has there been have there been any repercussions for you? There have been any legal repercussions. Anyone reached out to you? Have you gotten any
Adam Leventhal:That's a great question. I was like, wait. Hold on. It wasn't the RFD one. Oh, it's like, no.
Adam Leventhal:The one where
Bryan Cantrill:Oh.
Adam Leventhal:I confessed about my, half truth during a deposition. That's right. No. What I also
Bryan Cantrill:love about that episode that I I that I would like someone to play for me on my deathbed is when you're like, we're we're not gonna talk about we're not we don't feel comfortable. I this is what I feel comfortable talking about. And I'm like, I think we feel a lot more comfortable than that. And you're like, I don't think we do. I don't know.
Bryan Cantrill:No. Don't we do not feel comfortable. Like, yes. Yes. Now is the time.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:That's great. You, like, just, like, closed your eyes, put my hand on the wheel, and stepped on the accelerator, and off the cliff you went.
Bryan Cantrill:I did. I did. And then I really I feel like I did not adequately I mean, I really was a co conspirator in this. I'd I just wanna make that clear.
Adam Leventhal:No. For sure. You're like, wow, Adam. I loved reading the thing you wrote. That thing I wrote?!
Bryan Cantrill:The thing I wrote ! Listen, pal. As as I recall, you redlined all over the thing I wrote. We had enough I think to workshop it for 3 and a half hours.
Adam Leventhal:Ugh...
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. Never 3 and a half hours, I'll never get back. Right?
Bryan Cantrill:Exactly. Blog entry of Theseus pranking a CTO for his self praising autobiography. But so, I I did feel like there was one detail that I that just was kind of occurring to me later as I was reading the blog entries that I I just I think it is word so just to catch people from last week, there was a Dave Hitz wrote this self praising autobiography. We created and we there we are. We created.
Bryan Cantrill:We created a a a a fake fan blog, wondering if it would thinking that this might get his attention and he boy, he just chomped down on it. The one thing I I did really love is when you got the kind of the letter from the email from him, right, telling you, like, look, the lawyers have some issues with this. Yeah. And you kept doing, like, making the change that he requested and then making some other change as well that would be in the opposite direction. But you kept not following his directions precisely and forcing him to come back and be like, okay.
Bryan Cantrill:Thank you for taking down the NetApp logo there, but you've put the NetApp logo now. Now you're using it in 3 other places. Like, you're not allowed to use it. It was it was really great is what I gotta say. It was it was really it was delightful.
Adam Leventhal:It's a masterstroke.
Bryan Cantrill:Nonstop Lawyers is the is the blog entry that describes your your your ultimate exasperation because it's feels like whatever you do, the lawyers are telling you to do something different when in reality, your alter ego was deliberately doing things incorrectly. It it was really anyway, chef's kiss. I thought I was doing it right. Good stuff. That's not why we're here.
Bryan Cantrill:So we are here and so people complain people who do complain about us giving insufficient context may complain this time that we give too much context. I'm just gonna warn you in advance. Because this is a, the a note that, Andy Jassy sent last week on, a return to the office mandate for Amazon. So Amazon, and I think this happened actually maybe just before we did our episode last time, two and a half years ago, or around the same time had a a hybrid return to the office mandate. You would return to the office for 3 days a week, which I I mean, feels I don't know.
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, what what was your take on that at the time? I don't see I I think I think it's you are someone who I mean, this is probably true for me as well. I'd like really missed that in person collaboration that we had in an office.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think in part this podcast was like an accidental consequence of that missing socialization.
Bryan Cantrill:I actually I I think you are absolutely right. I think you are absolute I think that the the the path that this podcast took is very much a consequence of that. Because, you know, we and and, you know, we talked about that earlier that the the thing that, you know, when people talk about what you have in the office that's so special, one of it is one of the things is junior engineers being able to get lunch with senior engineers. Or and for us, that was getting dinner on Monday nights, and we've talked about this, that this podcast kind of serves that purpose, we think. Or or gets to some of that, of tapping into wisdom and and letting people kind of, you know, gathering at the metaphorical bar, if you will.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. But the bar only serves Diet Cokes, as it turns out. That's right. So, no, I think you're you're I think it's a very good point that that that this podcast is very much a consequence of that. So, yes.
Bryan Cantrill:So we so mixed feelings maybe two and a half years ago, and I think it was interesting to relisten to that conversation where, because Lucas in particular was like, alright, hey, we seem to be kind of in praise of remote work, can we kinda talk about some of the things we have lost here? Mhmm.
Bryan Cantrill:Some of
Bryan Cantrill:the things that we only get from in person collaboration. And I just think is I I actually wanna come back to that because I think there's a lot of things we can talk about there. But the this note so Amazon had this kind of hybrid model, 3 days a week, you had to be in an office, which is be where this thing begins to kinda teeter a little bit. It's not like the office, because Amazon's not in one office. And did you I mean, do you know folks at Amazon currently?
Bryan Cantrill:Or or or I should say operating under Cymbore return to the office minutes. Because I'll tell you that you know someone in common, a technologist in common who is at Amazon currently. Oh. And is, his frustration with this is my team is not collocated with me at all. So I've gotta drive for an hour and a half in pretty thick traffic to get into an office in which my team is not located, and I gotta spend and then I'm, like, just doing the thing I would be doing at home.
Adam Leventhal:I feel like that is the story. Like, I think my my, greatest point of, like, socialization with other adults is, like, kids' birthday parties. Okay? That's just the phase of life I'm in. But, like, that
Bryan Cantrill:is just that
Adam Leventhal:that that is, like, a story at everybody's, like you know, everyone has that story. Right? Everyone has the story of, like, yeah. I have to go to work. And it's kinda dumb because, like, when I'm home, I'm on Zoom calls with these folks.
Adam Leventhal:And, like, when I'm at work, I'm on noisier Zoom calls with these folks in much less convenient conditions and so forth. And I've, like, wasted or spent or, you know, depending, you know, the time to get there. So I think everyone's you know, whether it's Amazon or kinda you name it. Everyone feels that kind of, like, Sisyphean. Like, I've got this I'm in the office.
Adam Leventhal:The boulder's at the top of the hill. Now I'm on a Zoom call with a person who's at a different office. Thanks very much.
Bryan Cantrill:And I had to endure a long commute, and, like, I'm not gonna be able to be there in time for my kid's soccer game this afternoon or this evening as a result. I mean, it just feels like it it and I think people are willing to accept. Certainly, I mean, I think you and I are both willing to accept. Yes. There's a a chemistry, something you can have happen when you are in person that you don't necessarily get otherwise.
Bryan Cantrill:I've been trying to replay my own career though about the times when there's truly been that spark in a conference room at a whiteboard with dry erase markers. That's not the marker game. A perhaps a subject of its own. You record game was great.
Bryan Cantrill:Do you play the marker game much?
Adam Leventhal:Oh, of course. Like, over the light, we I mean, we should we should do an episode on, like, in office games. Games.
Bryan Cantrill:I wanna Got you.
Adam Leventhal:I wanna call and show where people do their best to describe their in office games.
Bryan Cantrill:And people don't realize that we because we are such overshares, people think there is nothing about us or Oxide, ourselves that we haven't shared. But in in fact, perhaps our greatest innovation has been has been unshared, an office game that is, well, some of us acknowledge.
Adam Leventhal:I mean, unshared insofar as, like, what? There's only one long Wiki in the public on this oh, you mean on this podcast? Yeah. I mean, I'm sure we'll have a fishpong episode. But, like
Bryan Cantrill:point we we, fishpong will be an Olympic sport. And that that's I'm I I may not live to see it. You may not live we may not may not live to see it, but it will There
Adam Leventhal:we go. I mean, I I look forward to talking about Z ball. I'm just gonna leave that as a teaser, but, like,
Bryan Cantrill:a a key off this game. I'm so glad you said that. I I'm like, I really wanna talk about Z ball right now. I know it's, like, off topic, but, like, we can get in that as Z ball pretty quickly, I feel.
Adam Leventhal:Sure. I don't know. Go for get take take get get us in there.
Bryan Cantrill:Okay. So the okay. Go. No. And this is like okay.
Bryan Cantrill:This is your this is an actual concrete in office innovation. You're only gonna get us one in the office because it requires everyone to physically be in the same room. So I and actually, you know, I think I believe that I this glass is still in my house. I became very concerned no. I became very concerned because I'm like, this is a historical artifact and, like, one of the kids is just gonna, like, break it.
Bryan Cantrill:I have a Solaris zones glass. Don't know how many there are. And I and this glass was just drifting around the conference room in which we would have the Detroit's meeting. We had a weekly Detroit's meeting. I wanna say
Adam Leventhal:That's right. That's right. That conference room is now, like, a graffitied wall in
Bryan Cantrill:Oh, god. Facebook. Oh my god. I just I
Adam Leventhal:just wanna tell you what happened to to to Nana's estate. Yeah. It got it got turned into a McMansion. Sorry.
Bryan Cantrill:Oh my god. Yeah. No. That cemetery is now a Chili's. It just feels like it's such a it's such a sad end for no.
Bryan Cantrill:That you could actually find that spot a little more easily because it's close to a stairway. Yeah. Because it's only the stairways remained. Like, they they had I've been there.
Adam Leventhal:I've I've I've visited that hallowed ground, and it, like, it is
Bryan Cantrill:I tried to take a photo of where my office was, and I was ushered out for taking a photo of, like, this confidential like, I'm in a Facebook office. There's nothing there like, can we just, like, have some respect for for this ancient burial ground, that I then I then you know, I I put a spell on that on that spot, and I'm I'm convinced that
Adam Leventhal:You're you're haunting it to this day.
Bryan Cantrill:I am haunting it to this day. So we had this this Solaris zones glass that had, like, drifted ashore in this conference room. And then somehow a ping pong ball enters. No. I'm not sure.
Adam Leventhal:No. Not a ping pong ball.
Bryan Cantrill:It was not a ping pong ball.
Adam Leventhal:Not it was a foam ball that this is really dating it. Do you remember cars used to have antennas?
Bryan Cantrill:This is
Adam Leventhal:really true.
Bryan Cantrill:Go on.
Adam Leventhal:It was it was a foam ball.
Bryan Cantrill:Put your phone on top of the antenna, or does this is this to get Wi Fi in the car?
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. Oh, god. Where do I start? Yeah. Let's just say yes.
Adam Leventhal:So your your your your car Right. Had an antenna, and it was like one of these little foam balls that you would stick at the end of god. I feel like I'm I'm telling a story about,
Bryan Cantrill:like like a Kire switch? This doesn't sound this is a or a dream. This just sound don't care.
Adam Leventhal:It sounds ridiculous.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, then there were there were wires that you would stick out of your car, and there were there's a foam ball you'd stick on the wire. You're like, god. How long does did you wake up? Yeah. This dream is going on forever.
Bryan Cantrill:And
Adam Leventhal:Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:We had a because this
Bryan Cantrill:was also a giveaway. Right? It was a
Adam Leventhal:It was an open it was an open Solaris.
Bryan Cantrill:When we get there, it was. Yeah. Yeah. Open Solaris antenna foam ball. Oh, god.
Bryan Cantrill:This sounds like a sounds like a group hallucination. This just sounds nuts. Yeah. So that is also in the conference room somehow. This really does sound dream.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, I don't know what that like, what either of these things but as my recollection is that both those things are just kind of, like, there. And at some point, someone like like a a paleolithic people discovering fire. We someone to look stared at the ball in their hand, stared at the glass on the table, and attempted to throw the ball in the glass. And Z ball was born.
Adam Leventhal:Thus. Yes.
Bryan Cantrill:Not to be confused with any other any other game that is throwing a ball into a hoop. This is Z ball and okay. So it was what it was one point if you were sitting in your chair and you could throw it into the the the glass in the middle of the table.
Adam Leventhal:Correct? Like a it was like a rectangle effectively, like a, a kind of a oval, like a shaped table.
Bryan Cantrill:And if you're on the short if
Adam Leventhal:you're on the short side, that was one point. If you're on the the the longer side, that was you know, if you're farther away, then that was 2 points. And if you're in the corner of the conference room, that was, like, a 4 pointer. There were a bunch of rules about, like, so it was it was like deuces wilds.
Bryan Cantrill:If your chair was touching the back of the wall, it was worth 3 points is what I wanna say. Mhmm. And
Adam Leventhal:there there was, like, some doubling thing, like, the suddenly the stakes were higher if certain things happened.
Bryan Cantrill:And the ball would frequently bounce out of this thing. It should be said.
Adam Leventhal:That's right. That's right.
Bryan Cantrill:And Mary was our program manager That's right. Assigned to Detrace for a hot second. Yeah. And the only thing I can remember about Mary is her one act as far as I think we're both concerned with respect to D'Trace, is she came in, saw us playing z ball, both of the with all of us struggling to get the ball into the glass. Took the ball standing up to the furthest corner of the conference room, sank it, and walked out.
Adam Leventhal:Trained it. Unbelievable. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Became a legend.
Adam Leventhal:Larry? You
Bryan Cantrill:are Wherever you are. Wherever you are, your legend lives on. It was okay. And, like, that's the stuff you're not you that is an only in the office moment. That is an important I know it's like, look, that's important.
Bryan Cantrill:That's part of our
Adam Leventhal:that's part of our fabric.
Bryan Cantrill:That's part of our our our oral history that that, you know, that is and so I actually don't wanna dismiss it. Like, that stuff is, like, important. You know?
Adam Leventhal:So so, I mean, the length of the walk we took you all on aside, I do feel like there's something deep in human DNA that causes office games to spawn from nothing. Right? That like, everyone has their in office game that that was conjured from the tchotchkes that happened to be left in a conference room.
Bryan Cantrill:The the tchotchkes, from having to throw away the trash, from ordering the ping pong table and not having it show up and having to, like, invent something. It's like, there is the the the all of these things have these kind of, these origin stories that are that where the the these quotidian accoutrements of the office become the stuff of legend. I mean, surely every office has this. Right? This is not just,
Adam Leventhal:no. For sure, a 100% every office has it.
Bryan Cantrill:Meanwhile, every oxide employee is like, is this their very long walk up to the oxide return to the office mandate? So the the but these are the kinds of things you only get in an office. I do think and when I kinda replay, like, the his like, so there are I got those moments in the office. I've got the chariot race in the office. Nope.
Bryan Cantrill:I'm out for that one. Do you remember that the each floor had the emergency chariot to evacuate someone? Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:It was like a stretcher.
Bryan Cantrill:It was it was a stretcher with wheels. With wheel with, like, one set of wheels.
Adam Leventhal:I didn't
Adam Leventhal:know it was
Adam Leventhal:called a chariot, but but please continue.
Bryan Cantrill:But it's like, obviously, we're gonna race these. Like, why would you who who in their right mind would would would put this in the hand of It's a
Adam Leventhal:it's a total total apple of discord. Let me just write to the to the fastest.
Bryan Cantrill:Apple of discord. The the the prefrontal cortex is not fully developed until you're in your late twenties, folks. And we were at, you know, 22, 23, 24, like, sorry, these things are getting erased a 100%. So it's like, okay. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:You only get chariot races, you only get z ball, you only get the marker game, you only get fish pong, all these things that require the office, for sure. And
Bryan Cantrill:the and you and then, I mean, the things we
Bryan Cantrill:talked about about, you know, a slightly more serious note about the lunchtime conversation and so on. Okay. You get that those things from the office. But I was trying to remember, like, when have I had, like, the work product has, like, that flash of work product has happened in the office at a whiteboard? And it's not like that it hasn't happened.
Bryan Cantrill:I and I could remember a couple of times in my career, but not very many. I mean, there are a it's a small handful. And honestly, like, they kinda predate chat and they predate the things where those things happen today.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. So I'm not like alternative forms where they could have potentially happened.
Bryan Cantrill:That's right. That's right. Like, I I mean, I remember you coming up with the simplifying assumption, for example, in Detroit, which I think we talked about in the Detroit's episode. That was that was at a whiteboard. That was the 3 of us at a whiteboard really struggling.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. But on the on other breakthroughs, I remember working with other people, but the breakthrough itself often happened in the shower. It often happened alone in my office. It happened driving to work. It happened somewhere else.
Bryan Cantrill:You know?
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. I like that you specified that you were alone in your office, but you didn't specify that for the shower. I just I'm just gonna make note
Bryan Cantrill:of that. Yeah. Listen. I, you know Listen.
Adam Leventhal:I said what is that?
Bryan Cantrill:God. You know, we had an apartment once with 2 shower heads. And fortunately, my wife and I have a shared disposition on this one, which is like, uh-uh. No. No.
Bryan Cantrill:No. No. Stowers, solo activity that we can Sorry.
Adam Leventhal:There we go.
Bryan Cantrill:You sorry. You took us there. Yeah. But so I I think that, like, like, the the idea that, like, something special happens that is technical, that is, like, creates artifact, I don't know. I really struggle.
Bryan Cantrill:I I feel like for every example I can come up with where that's happened, I feel I can come up with dozens where it's not the way it happened. Yeah. And it didn't require inverse collaboration.
Adam Leventhal:I think there's this, romantic idea we have of, like, cross pollination too, where it's maybe not you struggling to solve a problem at a whiteboard that couldn't have been solved elsewhere, but rather it's the lunchtime conversation or, you know, you walk in getting coffee or you you kinda you're doing a drive by and you overhear something, and that's what spawns this this kind of moment of inspiration. You know, I even struggle more to come up with those kinds of examples where
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. I feel it's like most of those examples are like z ball and, like, chariot racing. Like, you know what? We should race these chariots. These things have wheels, and we should race them.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, I feel like that is, like that's the conversation that happened coming back from coffee. Like, why haven't we thought of this before? Like, absolutely. Wait till this place clears out, and it's on. We're racing these things.
Adam Leventhal:I do like this idea of, like, instead of fighting return to office mandates, people should instead say, we should return to office and get back to the days of Zeball and Chariot racing as sort of, like, a a way to undermine the return to office mandate. Like, no. We're on the same page. Like, let's get let's get in the office and get racing.
Bryan Cantrill:I I too believe we should be playing a marker game with my brothers and sisters. We should be we should be playing Mary should return for as the the the return of the z ball queen. Absolutely. Yeah. For sure.
Bryan Cantrill:I and, like, I think that but that's part of the problem with these RTO mandates is that's not does not seem to be the angle, like, at all. And the I mean, I think you could make I think you could make a plausible case for that being the angle. But did you read this thing from Jassy?
Adam Leventhal:The the You know, I only read reactions. I didn't I didn't read his his what whatever he had written.
Bryan Cantrill:Alright. Good.
Adam Leventhal:We're really gonna read the tweet.
Bryan Cantrill:We're really gonna read the tweet. And we're like of course, anyone who listening to in the distant future is like looking at their watch being like, 25 minutes in, like, slow clap. And I'm finally getting context. It's like you literally talked about a 2 headed shower and chariot racing before you got to the top. Well, yes.
Bryan Cantrill:Here we are. You're welcome. Well, so first of all, it's like the the the subject is strengthening our culture and teams. And then if that doesn't get every antibody I mean, that's just gotta gotta get you on a high alert from when you get a, a a CEO message about strengthening our culture and teams. And so I I'm not gonna read the whole thing.
Bryan Cantrill:The although, actually, it is kind of worthwhile. So it's like, hey, team. I may have a little bit of, like, hey, team. I wanted to send a note on a couple of changes we're making to further strengthen our culture and teams. Immediately, anyone is like, who are we laying off?
Bryan Cantrill:Like, can we just, like, get, like can we please get to it? I I like, there's clearly something radical that is gonna be in this email. And it's like, okay. So how am I gonna find 1st, for perspective, I feel good about the progress we're making together. Alright.
Bryan Cantrill:A bunch of, like, blather about progress. Right. Okay. Next paragraph. That's not it.
Bryan Cantrill:Next paragraph. When I think about my time at Amazon, I never had imagined I'd be at the company for 27 years. My plan, which my wife and I agreed to on a bar napkin in 1997, was to be here for a few years and move back to New York City. Strike. Do not need why why why is this here?
Bryan Cantrill:Red line. Like, I mean, I just feel like so receive it for the podcast. Like, you wanna talk about, like, you're, you know, you're too headed to the podcast. Don't do it here. Why also, that you're you're you're talking about having been in the company for 27 years is a really, really, really long time.
Bryan Cantrill:I think it's like, you know, I was trying to think of myself, it's like, wow, that is like someone you know, I showed up at Sun in 1996. This is like getting a message from an executive talking about how they've been at the company since 1969. And that is I mean, the company didn't exist in 19 and there were there were very few Silicon Valley companies that existed in 1969. Like, at that time, it would be like Intel. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:That's kind of it. You know? And to think, like, that is a very, very long time. And, like, maybe you maybe that's something that you should maybe you should look inward on this one. That's an extremely long time.
Bryan Cantrill:And, like, do you want and so okay. So, you know, bar napkin. Also, like, the agreement on the bar napkin, isn't that weird? Why is it do you think that's true, first of all? Did you really write that down?
Bryan Cantrill:Like, show me the bar napkin. You got an agreement on a bar napkin. Right. Have you ever written in an agreement on a bar napkin? Like, that seems that's a very transactional relationship to have with your spouse.
Bryan Cantrill:This is weird.
Adam Leventhal:That's right. Is the bartender also a notary? Like, what what is this?
Bryan Cantrill:The bartender is a notary!
Bryan Cantrill:It's, like, hey, pal. I need you to witness this. I said, go ahead. Jesus, are you guys getting divorced? What's going on?
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, no. No. No. It's a prenup? You know, we we I we don't do prenups on napkins anymore after the litigation.
Bryan Cantrill:We what oh, okay. Alright. This is an agreement about you. A job? What is going on?
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, are there clauses spelled out anyway? I've got a lot of stuff. I've got a lot of No.
Adam Leventhal:Sure. Whatever. Get out your IDs. I need your thumbprint.
Bryan Cantrill:And, you know, I guess there's something wrong. He just point points out that he started as a level 5, which I get it. It's, like, super meaningful for if you're at Amazon. To me, it sounds like you're talking about, I don't know, like, a video game or something. It sounds like you're talking about Mario Brothers or something.
Bryan Cantrill:I don't know. He's anyway, started out as a level 5. Right. Yeah. Exactly.
Bryan Cantrill:Started out as a mage, as, and, okay. Fine. So, our culture is unique, and it's been one of the most critical parts of our success in the 1st 29 years. Okay. Jesus.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, get to it. There's obviously a big announcement. But keeping your culture strong is not a birthright. You have to work at it all the time. When you consider the breadth of your business, their associated growth rates, the innovation required across each of them, and the number of people we've hired in the last 6 to 8 years to pursue these endeavors, it's pretty unusual and will stretch even the strongest of cultures.
Bryan Cantrill:This is where you know this is not written by GPT because GPT would write up would not give you any of this blather. This is just kinda like, alright. This is where are we going? Strengthening our culture remains a top priority for the s team, and they do you do you know what the s team is? Is that like the suit that's clearly like, I don't know, supervisor team, sub lead team, I don't know what the what the s team is.
Bryan Cantrill:Do you know what the s team is? I don't know. I think about it all the time. I think about strengthening culture all the time. We wanna operate with the world's largest start up.
Bryan Cantrill:That means having a passion for constantly inventing for customers, which they do. I I mean, I think customer focus is great at Amazon. Strong urgency for big opportunities, it's a race. High ownership, fast decision making, scrappiness and frugality. Deeply connected collaboration.
Bryan Cantrill:You need to be joined at the hip with your teammates when inventing and solving hard problems, and a shared commitment to each other. And you're like, okay, where is this going? 2 years that I've been thinking about in the last several months are, 1, do we have the right organizational structure to drive the level of ownership and speed we desire? You're like, okay, it's a reorg mail. Right.
Bryan Cantrill:And 2, are we set up to invent, collaborate, and be connected enough to each other in our culture to deliver the absolute best for customers in the business that we can? We think we can do better on both. Okay? On the first topic, we've you're like, okay, the reorg. This is the reorg.
Bryan Cantrill:We've always sought to hire very smart, high judgment, inventive, delivery focused, and missionary teammates. What what do you feel about that sentence? This is another one where it's like, I Chachi, he doesn't write this one. Chachi, do you have better sentence No. For sure.
Bryan Cantrill:I just think, like, I it just high judgment as an adjective, I don't think that that's I don't think you can just do that actually, and missionary as an adjective. I don't know. It's isn't missionary a noun? I don't know.
Adam Leventhal:Or I think I'm I'm I'm already, like, so skimming over the part of, like, just what what is happening? Where are we going? Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Do I do I work here or not? Like, I got I I I I I need to go look for a job if I don't work here anymore. Can we just get here? We've always wanted the people doing the actual detailed work to have high ownership. I I like that.
Bryan Cantrill:As we have grown our teams as quickly and substantially as we have the last many years, we have understandably added a lot of managers. In that process, we have also added more layers than we had before. It's created artifacts we'd like to change, e. G. Pre meetings for the pre meetings, for the decision meetings, a longer line of managers feeling like they need to review a topic before it moves forward, owners of initiatives feeling less like they they would make recommendations because the decision we made elsewhere, emails that go on and on and on and on and on, etcetera.
Bryan Cantrill:Okay. I may have added that last weekend. I mean, he's like, okay. Like, you I mean It's very bad.
Adam Leventhal:There's not
Bryan Cantrill:irony here.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Right? I mean, there's an irony here. This is not most decisions we make are two way doors, and such we want most of our more of our teammates feeling like they can move fast without unnecessary process these meetings, mechanisms, and layers that create overhead and waste valuable time. You're like, meanwhile, I've got the stopwatch on how much of my own valuable time I've spent reading this as do you, dear listener, have the stopwatch down and be like, you started reading this thing, like, 7 minutes ago.
Bryan Cantrill:Are we where are we going? Here, are we almost, like, you you actually you know what? I want a lot less context for all future episodes. Thank you very little. So we're asking each s team organization to increase the ratio of individual contributors to managers by at least 15% by the end of q 1 2025.
Bryan Cantrill:Adam, given our discussion last week, is that a a founder mode sentence or a manager mode sentence?
Adam Leventhal:Oh, clear founder mode. Right? Getting rid of the answers. Well, I guess there are 2 ways to improve any kind of ratio. Right?
Adam Leventhal:Improve the numerator and improve the denominator.
Bryan Cantrill:So okay. So this I I I feel we could have a great Lincoln Douglas debate about whether this is founder mode or manager mode because you're right. I mean, eliminating the managers, I immediately think founder mode. But it's also not actually eliminating the managers, it's only you're only increasing the ratio of contributors to managers by at least 15%. By the way, I can hire more.
Bryan Cantrill:I can actually go hire more contributors.
Adam Leventhal:That's right.
Bryan Cantrill:I can get I get more reps, and it's 50% by the end of q 1 2025. It's not exactly tomorrow. Got it. You're you're
Adam Leventhal:you're creating potentially some per preserve perverse incentives in empire building to encourage the manager mode you've already embraced.
Bryan Cantrill:Exactly. I think this is like I think I feel that this this is I mean, I I feel like we've got a founder mode, manager mode duality in this sentence. And I feel that that, it's kind of in the eye of the beholder. I think it's kind of intended as founder mode, but I think it'll be read as manager mode. I think Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:The managers would be like, got it. I get I get 15% more heads than I get to go hire against.
Adam Leventhal:I mean, you know, it'd be like the most founder mode end to this email would be, I, myself, have terminated 15% of my reports.
Bryan Cantrill:But I'm not gonna tell you which 15%. That's right. I will save that for future email. Well, do you were you at Sun when McNeil did his rule of 11?
Adam Leventhal:That was already in that was already in place. Yeah. I mean, that was like a a tenant of management by the time I got to Sun, I believe.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. So he decided that I mean, again, this is, like, in an active founder mode, had realized that there were a lot there were and this was definitely true with the company where you'd have you know, and this is true whenever you get, you know, blossoming middle management, and then you get some reorgs, and then you end up with, like, oh, wait a minute. This this VP has got 2 directors reporting to them. Each director has got 3 managers reporting to them. Each of the managers only has 1 individual contributor.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, this is an entire organization with, like, 20 people and With,
Adam Leventhal:like, one person doing the work?
Bryan Cantrill:With 1 person doing the work.
Bryan Cantrill:And so McNeely instituted this rule of the rule of 11 that everybody had to have 11 reports. And I remember it's like, you know, as a year an engineer, you're like, alright. So I like, yeah, for sure. Like, yeah, let's go take a machete to some of the the middle management undergrowth. And, yeah, that that makes sense.
Bryan Cantrill:It was never enforced. And McNeely, to his credit, enforced it for himself, but then didn't actually put the and then his you know, the folks that work for him didn't do it. It just it was wasn't done, and there were no so we ended up with the rule of 11 was not enforced. But, what
Adam Leventhal:you're describing is also a son pathology, which is like Oh, for sure. Very very little was enforced. Right? Like, I think we we are strong on leadership and a little bit light on on follow through.
Bryan Cantrill:Very little follow through. Yes. Organizational mechanics. Not Yeah. Not a strength.
Bryan Cantrill:Absolutely not a strength. And the and you had this kind of middle management class that that was kinda looking after itself and was, so our so we got we have this sentence that has this duality to it. I mean, it does the next sentence maybe clarifies it a little bit. Having fewer managers remove layers and flatten organizations more than they are today. If we do this work well, it will increase our teammates' ability to move fast, clarify, and invigorate their sense of ownership, drive decision making closer to the front lines where it most impacts customers and the business, decrease bureaucracy, and strengthen our organization's ability to make customer lives better and easier every day.
Bryan Cantrill:It's like, woof. How about that sentence that have 15% fewer words than it, pal? It's a bit of a monster. We will do this thoughtfully, and our p x t team will work closely with our leaders to evolve our organizations to accomplish these goals in the next few months. It's like, okay.
Bryan Cantrill:You're Well, I
Adam Leventhal:I happened to be able to ask, how do I get on our p x t team?
Bryan Cantrill:Oh, the the way I've listened. If I told you that, then, like, what would be the point of the PXT team? Like, if everyone could figure out how to get on the PXT team. Yeah. I've got no idea what that yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Exactly. With the we the PXT team is are you clearly, you've now like, any manager has now stopped reading the rest of this email and is now jockeying for their for the PXT team. That's right. Who do I know
Adam Leventhal:on the PXT team? What do they what favors do they owe me?
Bryan Cantrill:What what favors do they owe me?
Bryan Cantrill:By the way, parenthetical, by the way, I've created a bureaucracy mailbox for any examples any of you see where we might have bureaucracy or unnecessary process that's crept in and we can root out. To be clear, companies need process to run effectively, and process does not equal bureaucracy, but unnecessary and excessive process or rules should be called out and extinguished. I will read these emails and action them accordingly. Okay. We saw a little a little, little bureaucracy suggestion box.
Bryan Cantrill:I kinda you know, I don't know what to think about that. I mean, it's like, it feels like that's whatever. To address the second issue of being better set up to invent, collaborate, and be connected to each other and our culture to deliver the absolute best for customers in the business, we've decided that we're gonna return to being in the office the way we were before the onset of COVID. Mhmm. When we look back over the last 5 years, we continue to believe that the advantages of being together in the office are significant.
Bryan Cantrill:I've previously explained these benefits in this February 2023 post. I guess this was after our after we recorded, by quite some margin. But in summary, we've observed that it's easier for our teammates to learn, model, practice, and strengthen our culture. Collaborating, brainstorming, and inventing are simpler and more effective. Teaching and learning from one another are more seamless.
Bryan Cantrill:And teams tend to be better connected to one another. Also, there's many more chariot races, Z ball, and marker game. If anything yeah.
Adam Leventhal:What I appreciate is he is putting his arm around us, walking us right up to the edge of the cliff, which we think he's gonna push us off. And then he's like, actually, could you just come to the office more? Like, oh, thank you. You're not pushing me off the cliff?
Bryan Cantrill:No. I'm not pushing you off
Adam Leventhal:the cliff. No. It's not like
Bryan Cantrill:I'm doing this. Push you off the cliff. When you're done with this, you're gonna wanna jump off the cliff. That's the that's the that kinda so if anything, the last 15 months we've been back at the office at least 3 days a week has strengthened our conviction about the benefits. And I feel that, like, this is the bit that I feel the I mean, this is kinda just like double talk about the the the benefit of being in an office.
Bryan Cantrill:And I I feel that, like, for those people that have been commuting to be on Zoom calls with people that are in other far flung offices, this is not gonna resonate. This is gonna feel like, how wait a minute. No. If anything, the last 15 months has shown how stupid this thing is. And that the, you know, the fact so they've been taking attendance, and in particular so your manager will get a report of, like, when you badge in, and there's something called coffee badging, I am led to understand, where you you go to badge in, you get a cup of coffee, and then you split.
Bryan Cantrill:And they wanna they wanna crack down on coffee badging. You're just like, oh, man. This is not taking attendance. This is not that's not what things were prior to COVID. Prior to COVID, you were not taking attendance.
Adam Leventhal:No. I I mean, to you figured, like, for the folks for whom going to the office 3 days a week was great, they're maybe going 4 or 5 days a week. Like, if you're actually seeing that benefit,
Bryan Cantrill:you know, and and it so much of
Adam Leventhal:it comes down to trust. Like, if you trust your folks who are doing the right thing for themselves and for the team and for the product and for their teammates and so forth, they're they're doing what they need to do. They're going in 4, 5 days a week, whatever. But for the folks who are going in 3 days a week to sit on Zoom calls, for the other folks who are in 3 days a week in some other location, It just sounds crazy.
Bryan Cantrill:Well, and this is I think you've hit on something that's really big and important here, which is just the breakdown of trust here. Yeah. And, I mean, this is kind of telling people by fiat how they're effective and not actually letting them figure out how they're effective. I mean, because what you want to you want a team to to a team ultimately is gonna need to deliver an objective of the business. Right?
Bryan Cantrill:And you want them to to to prioritize that with urgency, to have customer attention, and so on. But this is where you're like, you know what? And also, like, no more blue jeans in the office. It's like, okay, why? Like, you mean, I just I actually don't see how this is that different from a dress code.
Bryan Cantrill:And it like, all the arguments you can make in favor of this, you can also make in favor of a dress code. Like, what are we doing here with this? Yeah. And, you know, if you especially, if you are feeling like, you know, I'm I'm I'm commuting in to for Zoom calls, like, you're not no. This is this just feels very it feels it feels, I think, the art is going to feel disingenuous.
Bryan Cantrill:And, so yeah. And I I should actually also just say, Adam, maybe this is a good time, a good juncture that, you know, one of the things that listening to that previous episode from 2 and a half years ago did remind me of, I did love the call in aspect of that. Yeah. So I I do wanna get other people up here. I don't wanna just merely Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:Well, that's I mean, all about Seaball and Cherry Racists.
Adam Leventhal:I mean or or it could be. Maybe we'll have a dedicated episode for that. But, but I would now having read the full context, like, I'd love to hear what other people are seeing in our organizations and, like, what their, you know, what what their, how things are changing, if there's a return to office mandate, or if there's something more progressive or and and, like, what's motivating these things?
Bryan Cantrill:So I want you to know that that I I received the subtext that you would like me to not read the rest of this very lengthy email, but Oh, we're not done? Holy smokes. Oh, no. We're not done. No.
Bryan Cantrill:No. We're not done. I mean, it's fine. It has actually, like, it's just but it goes on for another 4 paragraphs. And and, not it doesn't really add much.
Bryan Cantrill:Other although it does say, the next paragraph is, the well, no, no, no. It goes on for 5 more paragraphs. Let me get one more paragraph in because, before the pandemic, not everyone was in the office 5 days a week, every week. If you or your child were sick, or if you had some house emergency, or if you were on the road seeing customers and partners, or if you if you needed a day or 2 to finish coding in a more isolated environment, people work remotely. I love that, like, of those examples.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, first of all, if your child is sick, like, aren't you taking a like, you allow please take a sick day. Right? You would allow it to play this day home. I I mean, yes.
Adam Leventhal:There is sort of a Dickensian, like, like
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Before the pandemic, I don't know if anyone was in the office 5 days a week. Some people were dead, and that was, you know, and that was understandable. That was fine. We were we understood that that tragedies happened.
Adam Leventhal:The death was impediment to full productivity. That's right.
Bryan Cantrill:Are you sort of house emergency? Okay. That feels like it's also a sick day. If you're on the road seeing customers or partners, you're like, you cannot be serious. Like It's like,
Adam Leventhal:oh, I don't have to go work that day? Thanks, boss.
Bryan Cantrill:Thanks. Thanks, boss. Okay. Thanks. You know, by the way, I am at work out on the road seeing customers and partners.
Bryan Cantrill:So I get okay. I'd I'd forgot that was part of my hobby project. Or or if you needed a day or 2 to finish coding, you
Bryan Cantrill:know, more
Adam Leventhal:Oh, so I I don't have to take vacation to finish the project? Oh, that's awesome.
Adam Leventhal:This is fun.
Bryan Cantrill:We'll we'll split the difference. We'll take half of those days. It's vacation.
Adam Leventhal:Take them on paper. That's fine. It's not vacation.
Bryan Cantrill:This was understood and will be moving forward as well. It's like, okay. Great. But before the pandemic, it was not a given that folks could work remotely 2 days a week, and that will also be true moving forward. Our expectation is that people will be in the office outside of extenuating circumstances, like the ones mentioned above.
Bryan Cantrill:At least 2 of them are work, by the way. So extenuating say in circumstances, including work. Or if you already have a remote work exception approved through your s team leader. And then I just the final paragraph to read. We are also going to bring back assigned desk assigned arrangements.
Bryan Cantrill:So I guess that was the, so, you know, you have that going on. Hey. It looks like you've got your own desk here. I'm not sure what you're complaining about. So and then it goes on.
Bryan Cantrill:But, yeah, there we go. That's the context. And I I think I just think that, like, even if you want people back in the office, I feel there's a much better way to position. And so here's the question I've got up just about this, is because many people are like, look, you are overthinking it. I think we even had someone on the Internet who's just like, yeah, it's like it's a shadow layoff.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, short episode. They wanna get people to quit, they don't have to pay them severance. And I'm like, I don't think I think that is overly reductive because I feel if I mean, are they are they really so cowardly as a management class at that company that they can't just lay people off? And if they don't pay people severance, don't pay people severance. Severance is not something that is that that's not that's something that companies do because they feel responsibility to their employees.
Bryan Cantrill:But, like, if you wanna, like you know, you don't have to do that. Yeah. So, like, just do that. I saw it. To me, like, that that's actually not the answer.
Adam Leventhal:I I think that Amazon does a lot of things, but I don't think they're stupid. And, like, just Right. Letting some subset of your employees opt out, is pretty stupid. Right? It it is it is, it's an like a opportunity to make sure that, like, the least productive employees stay and the most productive employees walk out.
Bryan Cantrill:It is. 1 so the other thing is, like, I also agree with you, they're not stupid, but they surely must know that so much yes, collaboration is an important part of work, so is that quiet time when you are working by yourself. And you need that quiet focus time, and that often is really hard to get in an office. And surely, they know that the things that we actually build happen in that quiet time, that focus time. Right?
Bryan Cantrill:The and this is where you get to like so here's my theory on this, by the way. I think that this is this is not rational. I think this is emotional. So my theory is that you get people who have lost their own sense of what their contribution is to an organization. They don't write code.
Bryan Cantrill:They don't operate a service. They are it's like their job is to lead the organization. And so they go into an office that doesn't have any people in it. And, like, I just don't know what I do. Like, what what what value do I add?
Bryan Cantrill:Like, so is this, like, not to go too citizen Kane on you, but is this, like, Andy Jassy's search for meaning?
Adam Leventhal:I I think there's something to that. I think there's something to that. I I think there also may I think you're right about the emotional aspect of it and and that sort of shock of, like, where is it, Rowan? I think there's a lack of trust, which I would also chalk up into it, like, sort of a paranoia and but I think there may also be, like, a financial aspect to it, like a sunk cost fallacy. Like, we're paying for all this.
Adam Leventhal:So why aren't people using it?
Bryan Cantrill:Yes. Yeah. I think that right. I think so too. And and then I think also just like, you know, there's something you know, we you're at a startup and it's like, it's 8 PM on a Thursday and everyone just ate pizza and they're going back and they're all working, and it just feels like, ah, we're so scrappy.
Bryan Cantrill:Right. And and it's like that like, is that the past that he's trying to get to? That kind of, like, nostalgia for a company that is and does he feel like, no, just this feels ossified. Even though, like, you're not actually looking at the work product, you're looking at this physical artifact that actually doesn't have necessarily that much to do with the work product. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:I don't know. Alright. So there we go. That's my I I just wanna get my my my my crazy theory out there that that this is that my my my rosebud theory that Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:I I don't think it's crazy at all. I I I think, yeah, I think there's something to it. I don't know how to, like, sort of evaluate that. Like, I wonder how we'll we'll kinda shake that out over time, but I'm can definitely keep it in mind.
Bryan Cantrill:Well, the only thing I wonder about is, like, I just feel like if you wanted to give this message. Right? So you, Andy Jassy, and I by the way, I did the experiment of having chat gbt write a message to the company about returning the the office. Wrote a much better I mean, wrote, like, a much crisper email and much more uplifting. I just feel like you could do it in a way that would feel much more uplifting and much less punitive and much less like it it's it's resorting to coercion.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Yeah. I wanna hear other people's experiences. So, like, are people enduring office mandates now, return office mandates? You know, what how is it going?
Adam Leventhal:And we've we've invited Matt, also known as my friend, Matt.
Bryan Cantrill:Oh, you just claimed everybody.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. Exactly right. But, Matt, I I don't wanna, like, tee up too much. So just, you know, what's on your mind?
Matt Amdur:You know, thanks thanks for having me. Long time listener, 2nd time caller. Very very proud of that. You know, I think, so I I worked for Broadcom, previously VMware. We've just gone through, the acquisition, and, you know, we went from a company that said work from anywhere and encourage people to move out of the Bay Area during COVID and, you know, live wherever you want.
Matt Amdur:We understand remote work is very valuable. Transitioning to a culture that is a 100% be in the office 5 days a week. Not dissimilar to the Amazon mandate. I think the reasoning behind it was a little bit different where it wasn't we strengthen our culture. It was this is our culture, and if you don't like it, we understand.
Matt Amdur:You can find another opportunity. And so, you know, I think we've been going through a lot of the same challenges of being told to come to the office, but, you know, Brian, you joke. Like, people don't have assigned seats. There's not enough seats for people to come to the office. There's not conference rooms.
Matt Amdur:So, you know, people come to the office and they need to have a meeting and can't do it. And so I I think a lot of the frustration you know, people do do see the frustration of why am I commuting and and, you know, is there actual value in it? But I think kind of what you both alluded to is previously when people came to the office, they they saw benefit in coming to the office or at least they, you know, they they had some of the cultural things that they like, you know, meeting people, talking about different things, working with different teams, all of that stuff. And the biggest thing that I've seen frustrating people is that their men didn't come back to the office, but then they're actively not doing anything to make it easy for people to come back to the office. And so that's where people are sort of saying, like, well, if this is so important and we're really trying to strengthen our culture and embrace it and make it stronger, why are you making it harder for everybody to do their jobs such that being in the office is a detriment as opposed to a benefit?
Matt Amdur:And so I think that's one of the things where it is really sort of made people question what's the underlying motivation. And, you know, I don't wanna call Brian a conspiracy theorist, but sort of leading him down that rabbit hole of, okay, what's what's the real meaning behind this, and what are they trying to accomplish? And then the only other thing that I would
Bryan Cantrill:What is it? Yeah. What what do you think they're trying to accomplish? Alright. I mean, it No.
Bryan Cantrill:I
Matt Amdur:think I think one of the things that is different about Broadcom that that, you know, has been sort of a revelation for me is, previously I've worked at, you know, largely software companies. You know, some companies we also sold hardware, but I wouldn't call us hardware companies. You know, Broadcom has a pretty big background in hardware where a lot of the people doing work literally have to be in the office to do that work. And so when COVID shut down, labs and foundries and all of these places where people worked, it had sort of a very material impact on the business. And I I think that sort of caused, in leadership's mind, like, that was something that was really scary to them and sort of an existential threat to the business.
Matt Amdur:And so, you know, them having that background where you had to be at work and you could no longer do it, I think, you know, caused more panic than I would expect to at a pure software place. But that's I mean, can we call bullshit on that though? I mean, that's not
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, in in so many different regards. Right? I mean, in that it's first of all, a lot of I mean, so much of hardware is software. Right? You're you're using EDA tooling to develop, whether you're developing an ASIC, or you're doing a board, or you're you're doing soft logic.
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, you're doing and and, actually, Nathaniel on our team has got a great blog entry on how you build a hardware team with a distributed workforce. I mean, not to I sorry. Matt, I don't know. I'm sure that I I'm I'm telling you the things you already know, of course.
Matt Amdur:No, Brian. But but, again, I think you go back to it. Right? And you say, like, well, Andy Jassy's sitting there being, like, if there's nobody in the office, am I doing my job? If if you grew up in a culture where the people working on hardware were sitting in a room working in a lab Yeah.
Matt Amdur:Right? Like, again, I think it's the the thing that you remember and the thing that you connect to and what was critical and what was successful. It doesn't mean it's rational. Right? But, like, I think there's some things that that then feed into, okay, well, that's the culture that made me successful.
Matt Amdur:It It's worked. I don't wanna move away from it. Therefore, it should work for everybody. Let's make everybody who do it.
Bryan Cantrill:But so in
Matt Amdur:in this in this regard though, Matt, I do think it does look like a
Bryan Cantrill:dress code. You know what I mean? Where it's like, no. No. Like, engineers wear a tie in the office.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, why are and, you know, part of the reason that, you know, and and Tom Lyon on here has talked about the kind of the West Coast companies versus the East Coast companies, and how they all the East Coast companies got kinda disrupted by the West Coast companies in the eighties in part because they're what I mean, McNealey's famous dress code for Sun was, you must. And that was kinda there was a time in which, like, that was a conoclastic. And you're like, we are the idea. It's like, yeah, your idea of of what an engineer is is changing. And then then, yeah, this engineer is in flip flops.
Bryan Cantrill:And they're developing something that is a, you know, a a chip. And they're doing it in flip flops. It's like, yes. These these things could both be true.
Matt Amdur:I'm glad you raised that point, Brian, because we do have a dress code now. I have not been sent home from work yet for inappropriate, or not meeting the dress code, which, you know, for folks who don't know me, that's pretty much every day. But yes, according to our handbook, we do also have a dress code. So I don't know if the two things go together. I don't know where AWS stands on this one.
Adam Leventhal:What's the what's the dress
Bryan Cantrill:oh, geez. Somebody is somebody yeah, exactly. Thank you. Same question. Go ahead.
Matt Amdur:It it's rather nebulous. It's sort of, say, professional attire. Like, we just attire.
Adam Leventhal:You're that's not you. No. 100%.
Matt Amdur:Yeah. No. And I I you know, I'm I'm still looking for a lawyer if there's anyone on the call who's willing to represent me when they come to a head.
Bryan Cantrill:I I you anyone wants to represent you. It's my cohost is a lawyer. Yeah. Happy. An 11th all employment lawyer would be happy to represent you in your dress code claim.
Adam Leventhal:Yes.
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, the, that is, man, that is great. I mean, that's obvi that's terrible. I know it's a this is what you're living, and I I know that your, this is not for enter our your dress code is not our entertainment, but all of that said and it's a bit shocking that they got a
Matt Amdur:I mean, it's like, you don't need to have a I mean, if you need to
Bryan Cantrill:have a dress code, something is because clearly, like, if you are with someone for which you need to dress professionally, you will need to dress professionally. And if you are going into the office to work on an Asic, you can wear flip flops. But, it it just goes to that same, like, undermining of of trust.
Adam Leventhal:And so Matt, what what's the reaction been as this becomes more enforced? Like, are are I mean, like, are there some folks who are receptive to it and think it would be a positive change, or are most folks, especially from the VMware culture, is it bugging them?
Matt Amdur:I mean, most folks have told me I do need to dress better. Sorry.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. This is an intervention.
Bryan Cantrill:Right? Oh, thank god there's a dress code. God, they did keep that.
Matt Amdur:Yeah. I think I think for the VMware folks, it's been, you know, I think sort of doubly challenging because, as the pandemic hit, right, like, I think one of the things that VMware did really well was sort of look at this and be like, hey. You know what? Like, being in the office isn't why we collaborate well together. It's not why we've been successful.
Matt Amdur:We're gonna embrace remote work. And, you know, told people, yeah. It's okay. You you can move away from an office. You can move somewhere else.
Matt Amdur:You don't have to like, this isn't a problem. Like, VMware is going to support remote work. And that was VMware's stance. Obviously, you know, we didn't know they they didn't what Broadcom was going to mandate or any of those things or even if the acquisition was happening at that point. But I think that for people coming through the acquisition, right, who had just moved away, I think the change was sort of doubly painful, right, where it's one thing to sort of say, hey, yeah, like I did it before.
Matt Amdur:I have the option to do it again if if I wanna continue working here versus, well, you told me that I could do this. I moved away, and now you're basically telling me I have to move back or, you know, I don't have a role with the company anymore.
Bryan Cantrill:And by the way, I mean, how many people that move away do so because, you know, my spouse has, you know, her residency is is in a remote community, or I need to be with my my mother is ailing, I wanna be close to her. I mean, it's like people move because of their own sense of duty to their broader families, I think, so frequently.
Matt Amdur:And I think it was one of those things again where other companies are saying, hey. You have to work in the office. It was one of the things where we could say, well, we're different. Right? And that attracted people who want us to come work with us.
Matt Amdur:And so, I think that transition has been hard, and then, you know, I think the second piece again is like, it being again akin to a dress code or sort of, you know, a rule that the principal told you as opposed to, you know, managers and leadership being accountable for making coming to the office a valuable productive thing that, you know, adds value and and actually benefits the culture. And so I I think there's been a fair amount of resistance and frustration. You know, the flip side is, like, the economy isn't necessarily where it was, and so, you know, for for some folks, that's also a concern. So I I think people are complying with it, but it it's sort of like trying to figure out how to follow the rule, not trying to figure out how do we get back to z ball or chariot races or the other things that sort of made the office what it was, and how do we give people that experience? And so, again, I think because people don't see the the or believe in the motivation behind it, the way that they're approaching it is sort of how do I toe the line as opposed to, hey, look, you know, Z ball was really fun.
Bryan Cantrill:Well and you've got some folks in the chat who some folks who are either in our cultures that have an RTO or at Amazon, specifically, that are asking, like, some pretty good questions. Like, hey, we're like, we quantify things at this company. Can you can you quantify some for me? Can you quantify this? Like, great.
Bryan Cantrill:I'm all for making us more productive. And then being told by management, like, no. No. No. This isn't about quantification.
Bryan Cantrill:Like, this isn't about, you know, Emily in the chat saying, hey, stop asking for the numbers. This isn't about the numbers. And it's like, you know, it's it's it's it seems to like it's been about the numbers for lots of other things around here. And it's like that really, again, undermines the faith that I have that this is a decision that's actually rational, let alone, one that is in my best interest. It's like this is not this is not I don't understand why we're doing this.
Matt Amdur:And and there is one thing there's just one thing that I wanna say real quick. Like, I do actually kinda wanna give a shout out to, to Haktan where, you know, Pete, like, people ask this exact question to him. Right? And, you know, his answer is like, I I get it. He's like, I I don't have data for this.
Matt Amdur:He's like, this is what I believe, this is the culture that I want, and I understand if it doesn't work for you, but it works for me and it's not about these things, like, this is the belief in the thing that I want to go do, that's why I'm doing it. And so I at least give him credit for saying that's behind it and not sort of trying to come up with, oh, but, you know, innovation was better or these other things. Whereas other folks, I feel like, have have said, hey. Look at me better, but I can't do anything. So, like, I give him credit for saying, this is how I think about it.
Matt Amdur:If you don't like it, that's fine, but you're not gonna change my mind.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Interesting. And then it's this is not a topic that's up for discussion, obviously. This is just like, take a hike if you don't like it, which I think is, okay. And maybe there's some books that we do, but it feels like you're gonna get some regretted attrition this way.
Bryan Cantrill:You're gonna get you're gonna lose folks that you don't wanna lose.
Matt Amdur:I I agree. But, you know, again, where I give him credit is he says, yeah. People are gonna leave. And if they're gonna leave, that's that's the outcome. I'm fine with it.
Matt Amdur:And so, again, like, at least to me, he's saying what he thinks will happen and understands the consequences of it and still wants to do it. He's not sort of making up reasons.
Adam Leventhal:There's a real clarity. Right? Like, he's not talking out of both sides of his mouth. It's not a 18 paragraph email. It's, like, my way or the highway.
Adam Leventhal:Let's go.
Matt Amdur:Yeah. Exactly.
Chris:Alright. And this is when management likes to use the leadership principles to be like, disagree and commit on this one. Don't you know, the data driven principle isn't really applicable here.
Bryan Cantrill:Okay.
Chris:Which
Chris:can be disheartening for employees.
Bryan Cantrill:Right. So on the leadership principles, because one thing I you know, Amazon had 14 leadership principles for a long time, and then kinda had this, like, late tack on of 2 additional leadership principles. Oh. One of which is yeah. It's bonus leadership principles.
Bryan Cantrill:So but I would postdate my my talk on the on them actually. And one I mean, they're both kind of, like, nonsense. But one of them is to strive to be Earth's best employer. And I which I think was honestly a consequence of some of these New York Times pieces that were some of these these pieces that were revealing some of the the the really tough working conditions that people had, not just on the on kind of the AWS side, but but Amazon writ large, and I think it was, it was beginning to threaten, their their kind of pipeline of young folks. Has Chris, do you know if if if that's I mean, that's a leadership principle.
Bryan Cantrill:Right? Is, like and has that leadership principle kind of have you been like, hey. Is this part of striving to be Earth's best employer? Because not really feeling that one here.
Chris:Yeah. That one doesn't come up as much in conversation, almost ever. I don't think in all my performance reviews I've ever ticked that box for for anybody just because I just don't it's kinda hard to apply.
Bryan Cantrill:Are you tempted to try? Because it'd be like, no. That's not a that's a that that's not a leadership. But we put that there for the New York Times. That's the one that's not an actual leadership principle.
Chris:It doesn't count so often. No. I I I think I mean, that's kind of the frustrating thing. You know? I our Slack is enormous at work.
Chris:And, like, in our remote advocacy group, there's, you know, 35,000 people alone that are extremely upset about this. And, you know, the a lot of the sentiment is, like, you have this leadership principle, and, you know, you you want us to to be productive. Like, show us the data and and be the best employer, and this is not feeling like that at all.
Bryan Cantrill:Okay. So another question on this. First of all, it it it's really interesting to hear kinda from the inside about how the I mean, it's it this is obviously not popular, and you've got a this is very uprooting to people's lives, I'm sure. One of the comments he said is that we wanna be like a startup again. And, you know, speaking as a startup, I don't know.
Bryan Cantrill:You know, the startups these days are kinda taking advantage of the fact that you larger companies have these dumbass RTO mandates. And I don't think Oxide is the only startup that is benefiting from some extraordinary people who are wondering what's next because they are leaving these established companies. Are the startups out there I mean, it feels to me like startups are remote, increasingly. I mean, Adam, you were broadly pretty remote, right, when you were
Adam Leventhal:Actually, you know what? We weren't that remote. We were, like, pretty in person. And we, you know, got an expensive office space, in downtown San Francisco, and people went to it. We had, like, some remote time.
Adam Leventhal:Like, people would work remotely on Wednesdays or whatever. But by and large, like, it was in person. I I think I said at the time, you know, I was looking at what you had done at Joyant, and I thought you had done a great job of of having some folks in person and some folks remote. And, I I don't know. It's like, I wasn't sure how to operate in a team like that, especially very early on.
Adam Leventhal:Now I think that that's changed for me. That's changed, I think, for the industry broadly. But even in that 2016, you know, 8 years ago when I was starting the company, I felt like there was a choice you could make between whether you're mostly in person or mostly remote, and you'd hire, you know, different folks or whatever, but it was a it was kind of a viable choice. I'm not so sure how viable is the choice these days.
Bryan Cantrill:To be remote or to be a person?
Adam Leventhal:Oh, pardon me. To be, like to say we're in person. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, I I obviously, I think being remote is, like, I I I mean, it feels to me I'm I'm, like, very much biased on this one, but it feels like more of the default answer, whereas in person was the default answer previously.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. I think so too. So and and, Chris, inside because I know that that historically, when some of these mandates came down, there were some exceptions that people were able to get, and the the reality was the folks that needed the exceptions were always able to get them. Is that what's the thinking on whether that's gonna continue, or are they are they trying to crack down on some of those exceptions?
Chris:Well, so you you saw on that note, they mentioned people with exceptions, and and and that's good that that that might stay. I mean, I mean, one of the big things, which is like a sad reality, is in these channels for remote advocacy, it's, like, people sharing advice on, like, hey. Like, does this qualify as something I should go talk to HR about? And there's actually people in there who's, like, full time jobs besides, of course, their normal job to, like, give advice on, like, hey. You need to go find these two forms and make sure you have a doctor approved thing and and do this because otherwise, you just wouldn't know.
Chris:So, like, I, for example, had a medical exemption because I've I've got this hand problem I've talked about before, And then it was it was up for review after a year. Because I I joined during COVID with with being hired remote, and then I was told that I need to come in the ERP a few other week. Oh, boy. But then it took it took somebody on this on this thread to be like, oh, by the way, there's this, like, hidden secret box you can check on the bottom of this form that will, like, make the thing permanent. And so I'm super lucky that I got to do that, like, 6 months ago, and then, like, totally forgot about it.
Chris:And now here we are, you know, thankfully, I I get to hopefully, it's uncertain right now, so it's, like, ongoing conversations, but it's really shitty for for everybody involved. And, you know, I always point to, like, you know, you can make remote happen, and Oxide's, like, one of those examples I point to. It's, like, they do hardware and they they're they're remote. We're doing purely software over here. What's the issue?
Bryan Cantrill:What's the answer to that, out of curiosity?
Chris:The answer to why can't we be remote?
Bryan Cantrill:Yes. Like, I mean, it just, like, when
Matt Amdur:you when you try to
Bryan Cantrill:get it to ground up, like, can we just talk about some of this the the magical collaboration that only happens in person? Can we just get to some concrete examples of that? Is that where I mean, why why are you even asking this? Of course. Like
Chris:I mean, you know, I I won't say anything too bad, but, like, to your point, like, I don't I I I assume it's management. I mean, like, when they came out with this announcement, I personally am very vocal and was like, like, this is what you guys have been doing for the last, like, 6 months on the s team? Like, we're we're solving problems over here, and you're still thinking about this. We thought we were over this. I guess not.
Chris:But I I think so the reason I raised my hand initially was I I think one of the reasons they keep going back to this is they claim that it took a culture front and they wanna keep the culture of a start up. I wanna get your take on this too because I I guess I just you know, I grew up in an age of I'm, born in the late nineties. I grew up in the age of of the Internet and playing online video games and having communities. Like, I I have culture with people that I've never seen in person. Yep.
Chris:Like, is this just, like, an older CEO thing where they don't think you can have a vibrant culture online and they don't know how to do it? Because I certainly think you can.
Adam Leventhal:Chris, I think you're really on to something, and I think
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. I think it is.
Adam Leventhal:I I think it's it's both a generational thing and kind of one's own experience. But I think it's also the the tools that have become commonplace in the way that we work, and yet people sort of, having this nostalgia for a time and forgetting the absence of these tools. Right? Like, Brian, you were talking about how, you know, talking in chat or on a Google Meet or, in lots of these different kind of remote collaboration tools for call. Like, we didn't really have that.
Adam Leventhal:Like, when we would when we would work remotely at Sun in the, like, early 2000 or whatever, like, you would get on a conference call, but, like, there was no, there was no, like, video chat or anything. I think we did a little bit of, like I think we're on, like, AOL Instant Messenger and stuff, like, randomly.
Bryan Cantrill:Like That would have been there. Honestly, no. That would have been like no. I was not on any I was on an IRC Jabber. I was on, when we were working remote, it was email.
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, it was just like Yeah. If you wanna go, like, really get tears in your eyes and and, you know, they, it was email.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:What was the way we and and we used email differently than it's used now. Totally. Totally. And you you were much more current on email. There's a lot of email back and forth.
Bryan Cantrill:So that but it but email was very important. And I I think that and, obviously, you know, someone tried to say, like like, e email. Like, not sorry. Not the thing that I the thing that I have to put a confirmation code into in order to log in to the website. Like, I think,
Adam Leventhal:like, that's you why would you say that for?
Bryan Cantrill:That doesn't make any sense.
Adam Leventhal:I feel like, like, people are going to you you know, if, if someone comes to my house, like, rings the doorbell, like, my older son who's now moved out, but, like, didn't know how to react, like, total panic that, like, somebody could show up at your door. I feel like that's how people are going to regard email. Like, I'm receiving an email. This is like a highly aggressive, like, action.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. No. I think and I think but to the question but you're right.
Bryan Cantrill:We didn't have any of those tools. So it it looked very different. And I think that the I think you're right that this is just a generational shift and people are and this is why I think it's like, this is closer to a dress code than not. That the, you know, they're absolute I mean, it's kind of amazing. This is why I do feel like I'm a fossil.
Bryan Cantrill:That when I entered the workforce, it was a big deal that even in by the mid nineties, when you went to an East Coast tech company, there was like, people were in like business casual to do work. I mean, it was not, I mean, you were only kinda just out of the era where engineers wore ties. And it it the I mean, obviously, I'm like, no, you just wear like blue jeans. And the and why and I remember thinking as a 22 year old in 1996, why is this company acting like it's a big deal they don't have a dress code? Like, of course you don't.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Like, you're not that's like, of course you don't. But I but that's like one of those generational shifts. I I definitely think, Chris, it absolutely is a generational shift. I do think that the other thing, and this is like, to get to that back to that emotional issue, I think, you know, is it glorious Gloria Steinem is that aging is not for wimps?
Bryan Cantrill:Who is that? Is that Bette Davis? I feel is that Bette it's either Ben Franklin or Mark Twain or Eleanor Rose. One of them. Anyway, That's true.
Bryan Cantrill:And, aging is not for once. And I think that it is really hard to age as a technologist because you do you, like, especially and this is why it's so important to me personally, to stay, like, on the details. Because once you have a couple of years where you're off the details and you're no longer making individual contributions, it becomes really, really daunting to to think about, like, going back. And you don't really know what your role is anymore, you know, in the office space. You know, I'm a people person.
Bryan Cantrill:And, like, what what is what is my role? And I think that there's a great solace to know, like, oh, my role is there are a bunch of people here in cubicles, and I walk around from cubicle to cubicle. This is the h the HP, you know, famously, I I can't remember.
Adam Leventhal:From walking by walking around.
Matt Amdur:Walking around.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:And you would you walk around, you know, hey. How's it going? And that is how you managed. And I think that you like, that doesn't work in this world, and I I think that that I think you've got an entire generation that's having a hard time coming to grips with it. And that's why I really wonder about new company formation, this idea, like, we we wanna act like a startup.
Bryan Cantrill:I was like, well, funny you should mention startups because startups are all gonna work remotely. And or at least have a big remote component. I I'm still I don't know how things are gonna because I I mean, obviously, our physical office is still important to us. I'm I'm here now. It's a lab.
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, it it does and it it functions as a meeting space. Right? We're gonna have our meetup here in a couple of weeks, which everyone is really looking forward to. And, you know, we have all that goodness that comes from being together. I think that it's like, you know, I don't think anyone wants to say that there's no value in physically being together, it's just that that does not make sense for 100% of your at work activities.
Bryan Cantrill:I also think the other, by the way, and Chris I'd love to get your take on this, and I, like, does this come up? Because the other thing that's changed is the expectation of, like, when what are the hours of work? And, you know, it used to be when you left work, because you did not actually have a computer in your pocket and because you do not have a computer at your home, you were actually, like, unreachable, and you were actually off work. And that is not true for us now. Obviously, people are always connected all the time, and they're expected to be.
Bryan Cantrill:And, Chris, is there any kind of pushback internally being like, alright. Hey. Look. You want me to come to the office? Great.
Bryan Cantrill:By the way, like, laptop closes at 6 PM. So, like, I'm, you know, sorry. I this this has got to cut both ways.
Chris:So I definitely I there's 2 things. One of them, like, I personally so I work remote. I personally get annoyed when people have to go into the office, because usually they'll sign on before they leave, and then we'll get into a conversation about something. And then they'll be like, oh, hey. By the way, I have to I have to get in the car and drive 45 minutes.
Chris:So can I call you back then? And they're like, can I call you in the car? I'm like, oh, gosh. Like, we were just getting started on something interesting here, and now you have to commute for an hour. Like, I'll talk to you later.
Chris:I definitely think I mean, from everybody I talk to on my team, it's it's on days when they go to the office. They're like, hey. I'm back at home now, so let's let's call it here. Like, I'm I'm signing off more solidly. So that's a benefit, but then add in the commute, and I think almost everybody says, you know, I'd rather not commute.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. Right. But and there's, like, a fatigue thing, I think, like, for for commuting too. Like, I think it just grinds on you, you know, even if you're working, you know, less hands on keyboard or whatever.
Matt Amdur:I think right
Bryan Cantrill:When I personally, like, have to take public transportation in terms of commuting. Sorry, Matt. What were you saying? No.
Matt Amdur:I was gonna say, I think it's actually interesting where I don't know if it's changed, like, specifically, oh, well, at this time, I walk out, but I think it has eroded goodwill. So Yeah. I mean, like any software organization, right, like, shit hits the fan and people are working late into the night because, you know, like, the the main check-in pipeline is broken or there's a critical customer escalation or there's a deadline for a patch release that we need to hit. And, you know, previously, I think people sort of were much more willing to sort of, you know, go the extra mile or say, oh, okay. Yeah.
Matt Amdur:Like, I'm, you know, I'm gonna work really hard this weekend because we really need to get this thing done, and then I'll just, you know, like, I'll take a couple days off next week and, you know, it all evens out in the wash. What I've seen is that that that goodwill is just gone where it's like
Bryan Cantrill:It's gone. Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:It's like,
Matt Amdur:well, no. Like, if I stay up working until 2 in the morning because I need to make sure that this customer is healthy, you're telling me I need to be in the office the next day.
Chris:Okay. I don't get an email that you were scanning my my badges and everything and tracking me with a, you know, spreadsheet.
Matt Amdur:Exactly. Like and and you get the phone call or or the email saying, like, why weren't you here on Tuesday? You don't get it being, like, hey. Thanks for staying up Monday night to midnight to make sure that the upgrade for this critical customer went through when we met their timeline. And so, again, I think it gets to that notion where there's previously been trust.
Matt Amdur:Right? And that trust is sort of, like, the building block of everything. And this is, like, one of the sort of, like, silliest and fastest ways it seems to to avoid that trust. And the result is people are now sort of, like, okay. Well, if you don't trust me to figure out where to be and when to work, why should I trust you that, you know, you're gonna reward me or or at least support me for doing the right thing?
Chris:Totally. And if you're the employer, I mean, maybe this is a hot take, but, like, if I can't trust you to work when I'm not, you know, micromanaging you and monitoring you, why do I even hire you?
Bryan Cantrill:Totally.
Chris:Like, you're supposedly a professional. You're supposed to get things done. Like, if you can't evaluate me based on work, it's, like, I I don't even know why we're in this relationship of employer employee. Like, this this is a waste of time.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. Well, this ex this example you're you're you're coming up with, you know, I remember this moment in my career in particular where it was, like, Sunday night, working on getting something done. And I got an email from my manager that said, hey. You know, you took a day off on Tuesday, and you didn't record it properly. And here's how you record it properly.
Adam Leventhal:And here I am Sunday night working my ass off. And I just remember feeling, like, just so enraged by that moment. Oh, my god.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. And that was that that was that was at Sun?
Adam Leventhal:No. No. Actually, it was at Delphix. It was at Delphix.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Oh, it makes a little more sense.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The folks at Sun wouldn't be paying attention. Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:Exactly.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Exactly. It's like the managers themselves, like, they applies that they're working on a Sunday night, but they send you that email on a Sunday night. So it's like, yeah. I'm not gonna be doing that.
Adam Leventhal:That's right.
Bryan Cantrill:You someone had asked in the chat about, like, well, hey, what was remote work like at Sun? And so when I was there, he like, literally when I arrived, the engineers in kernel development had just gotten approval to have the, the ISDN lines, so they could actually meaningfully work from home. So when I was there, the engineers had started to work from home, and but I did not for the fur and it's kind of amazing to think I Adam, how it feels like it was such a long period of time, and it was such a kind of a blink in the eye that a blink of the eye that like, in 1996, the engineers had just started work from home, Bonwick with the engineer Jeff Bonwick, who I'd come to son to work with. Jeff would get in at, like, 2 PM. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:2 to 3 PM. He'd kinda, like, hang out in the evening, and then he'd go home at, like, 7. And then he just to, like, wait out traffic. And then he'd be up until, you know, I would be I'd be working with him, over email until and also the phone, Adam. That's the other thing.
Bryan Cantrill:We did use the phone. Right. People would he would call me, and we would talk on the phone at,
Adam Leventhal:like, the on your on your landline, just to be clear.
Bryan Cantrill:On my landline in the office. And because I could not work from home because I I just did not so I was in the office well, it's all the time. And I would be in the office until, you know, 4 or 5 in the morning. And I so the 1st year that I was working, I was working Bonwick hours, which was really stupid because,
Adam Leventhal:Bonwick standard time is not
Bryan Cantrill:Bonwick standard time is not actually, like, it's not diurnal. It is it is not actually. So I would end up because I had a, reverse commute. It would take me, like, 6 minutes to get into the office, unless I was going into the office at 4 PM, and it took me 45 minutes. And I'm like, I have got to be, like, I gotta get off this, and I gotta get something that is looks more like rational human kind of hours.
Bryan Cantrill:But the people had started to work remotely. And then, Adam, by the time you came in 2,001, and we we had really I mean, we had, DSL. We, you know, I I remember when we got our new place in San Francisco 2000. Like, I I got DSL. That was a big deal.
Bryan Cantrill:And we were starting to work remotely a couple days a week. Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:And And and with those remote access, like, token cards, those one time password cards was somehow load bearing for a long time for how Sun IT would let us get in remotely.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. So Danny Donald was here, set up with the, who
Adam Leventhal:Well, that that would predated the punch in stuff. Like, the
Bryan Cantrill:It did predate punch in. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. You're right.
Bryan Cantrill:You're right. You're right. We we had some some kind of VPN stuff. And Yeah. And then I definitely remember, you know, you were the one you were the messenger on Wi Fi.
Bryan Cantrill:You're describing Wi Fi, and I'm like, this sound you came from the future. This sounds like, there are no wires plugged in your laptop at all. Like, I that's just no way. That's not possible. And I wrote Wi Fi.
Bryan Cantrill:I was just like, wow. Yeah. And then so by the time we and then so things were pretty hybrid from that point. You know? I remember a lot of detrace we did in our like, working at home, for sure.
Adam Leventhal:I think my critique of remote work at the time was that it was very haphazard. Right? Like if you, because like the benefit of going to the office was conversing with certain folks or collaborating with certain folks.
Bryan Cantrill:But then
Adam Leventhal:if it turned out like, oh, they didn't go in that day.
Bryan Cantrill:They didn't go in that day. That's right.
Adam Leventhal:Then you sort of feel like, why did I why did I get on the train? What am I doing here? Like, why why did I work to get down here?
Bryan Cantrill:When when we started Fishworks, I remember really being explicit about, like, we want the office to be that kind of gathering place. And, yes, we're gonna do work from home, but we're gonna work from work. And that it it gave us fishpump just as the world just as our working office gave us Seapal and the market came.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. Well, I you know, we we talked about Oxide. I we got you founded Oxide, as it turns out, sort of moments before the pandemic.
Bryan Cantrill:Moments before the pandemic. Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:And and, I do wonder, like, if if we were starting Oxide today, what would the office situation look like? Or or if you were starting it in in March 2020 rather than late 20, 2019, like, maybe you would have got an office. Maybe there would have been a place that we needed to, like, warehouse materials or do some of this bring up or whatever. But you would certainly have looked differently because when you got that office in 2019, sure, you thought we're gonna have whatever it is, 50% remote, 20% remote, but you envisioned a a building, a room with a bunch of people in it. Like, that that's what it was for.
Bryan Cantrill:We did, and we also I remember thinking, like, this will be good for the first, like, year or 2, then we'll need to get a bigger space.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. Much bigger space to accommodate the
Bryan Cantrill:To accommodate. And it's like Yep. Nope. We're not gonna need to do that. And I I mean, I think the the the thing that gets really weird to think about is, like, what if there's no pandemic at all?
Bryan Cantrill:And because that is, like, that takes us into bizarro land, because we make a whole bunch of different decisions. And, I mean, it's it's actually horrifying. I I actually it is it is actually too scary to contemplate with the pandemic. No. I'm serious.
Bryan Cantrill:Because, like, I there were so many jobs that I had it in my head have to be local. Yeah. Operations had to be local.
Adam Leventhal:That's right. Operations of but
Bryan Cantrill:the The double x had to be local. Yeah. Totally. You're right. It looks
Adam Leventhal:very different, and I'm not sure where we are. Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:No. It's scary. I I don't like to like, I my my breathing accelerates just kinda thinking about it because, like, like, I don't know that we pull it off. I think of that like, actually, I almost know that we don't. And I I mean, it's really and the ability to get folks wherever they are is an absolute magic power that any start up is gonna use.
Bryan Cantrill:I mean, so I think you, you, like, part of the reason that I think this is gonna shift so radically is because startups, 1, I mean, so Chris, just for the generational issues you're mentioning that, like, hey, this is generationally, this is it's not big of a deal to me. I'm born in the mid nineties, I I I play video games, I'm I'm just used to, like, online community. So, like that is not a big deal for me, and so I think that that that one you kinda have that big adjustment. Then you also have like, oh, wait a minute, the pool of talent that I wanna hire from is, they are making this incredibly bad decision that I can take advantage of and get people I was like, oh, okay. Wow.
Bryan Cantrill:Great. Thanks, Amazon. I didn't think I was gonna be able to hire any of your folks, but, you know, thanks Broadcom. Thanks, Google. Thanks, and, you know, that because as a start up, you've gotta find a way to differentiate yourself, and, you know, you're obviously, there's a certain, there's a degree of, venture funded startup, you're giving up a degree of, of the, job security obviously, you gotta find a way to differentiate, and boy, being able to hire remote is a really, really, really key way to differentiate.
Bryan Cantrill:And that this is the bit I think with Andy Jassy. I'm like, do you think if you were a startup today, do you understand that you would probably hire you'd be a remote company?
Adam Leventhal:Yeah.
Bryan Cantrill:And that I don't I I don't I don't think he gets. Yeah.
Adam Leventhal:So when 2 two and a half years ago, when we were talking about this, Matt was on, and he said that he that he hoped for remote work wasn't just viewed as a cost savings. I think that at the time, people were, like, shedding their offices and and feeling that, like, that was a huge benefit. Not just a cost savings, but instead a way to hire the best people, as you're saying, Brian. And I think also in that episode, speaking to a question in chat about interns and something, Chris, you had mentioned about, I think, some of the generational differences, one of the questions we had was, what's it like for new employees? Like, what's it like for new college grads coming in?
Adam Leventhal:And I think at the time, I was really worried about it. And I feel like that is maybe my okay boomer moment because, like, these folks, especially, like, if you're a a a a student who's graduating from college, you spent a big chunk of your time remote during the pandemic. Like, you know how to do this. Like, you figured it out. This is how you operate.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. And so, like, for the person in chat asking about the college intern starting, I think, like, you meet them where they are. You figure out how they wanna work because, like, they're they're they've already figured out how to do a bunch of this stuff. And, yeah, for me coming out of school, it was so important to sit at the lunchroom table. It was so important to, like, stumble into people's office and ask them questions or whatever.
Adam Leventhal:But I think that, like, different generations figure out their own ways that are gonna be different than the ways that we were familiar with doing them.
Bryan Cantrill:I think so too. And I think that, like, you you know, in evergreen, for years years years, an evergreen about, like, hey, I wanna have a hacker news thread that's gonna have a 1,000 comments. Talk about office layout. Right? We open plan, offices, cubicles, like, everyone's at war with everyone else.
Bryan Cantrill:Right? And the you know, that's not something we needed you know, we've got other challenges in a remote world. But but office layout is not some do you remember, like, Adam, I remember we were talking about, like, you know, at Joyant, we kind of had these cubicles. They they weren't cubicles. They were dividers, where it was like an open plan that where the dividers were of a very specified height.
Bryan Cantrill:So you could kinda, like, keep your head down and headphones on, but you could also, like, look up. I mean, it was like all all this, like, nonsense that we don't need to do anymore. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
Chris:And, you know, I think you guys mentioned it in your podcast a long time ago about the state of working or about where where now I I just prefer people to be at home on calls because there's not background noise, and it turns out that conference room cameras are bad, and you can't see facial expressions. And I actually prefer screen share for looking at people's code and pair programming because, you know, they're not hovering over me or, god forbid, touching my keyboard. So there's just benefits that you don't you don't see as, like that.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. Totally. Well, and then all these things that we kinda talked about that episode that I think if you should go back and listen to it, because I do think it's, like, it's all the stuff that's now really important to us, like the side chat and the side channel, and the the back channel, the ability to record meetings, all the stuff that I just can't live without. The other thing is that also, you know, the I was actually interacting with someone who was at a return to office company, and was having a a conversation with him, was scheduled to have a conversation with him. And he was, like, 4 minutes late.
Bryan Cantrill:And, you know, in the post pandemic world, 4 minutes is, like, okay, I, like Call the cops.
Adam Leventhal:Where is this person?
Bryan Cantrill:Call the cops. National disaster. Check Twitter. There's been an earthquake. It's like the, you know, this is like, this is the the this is cataclysmic.
Bryan Cantrill:And he was very apologetic. He's like, I'm so sorry. I I had to get a conference room. And I like but the the I had this conference room booked and these guys wouldn't leave because they went over. It's a copy idea that, like, your like, that conversation, which is, like, let's assume is a good conversation, is grooving, and has to stop now because somebody else needs to have a conversation.
Bryan Cantrill:Because it's like, oh my god. Like, what are we doing? This just makes no sense in terms of and I think this is what, you know, what people are latching on to in terms of, like, hey, that this doesn't feel like it's making us more productive. Well, Adam, I'm not sure when where do we think there's gonna be a trend? Actually, let's leave on this.
Bryan Cantrill:Do we think does this pretend a a trend? Is this gonna be an outlier? Are we what what is the future here for these RTO mandates?
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. I do think it's a trend. I think that I I think that you're onto something with regard to this emotional emotionality and justification of one's role. I think, the finance folks who have invested in a bunch of real estate, I think it's the confluence of these things is gonna, keep pushing for these RTO mandates. And then whether it turns out to be, like, Hock Tan's my way or the highway or a softer mandate, but don't enforce like, like Scott McNealy would do if you were still in charge, I think that's that's a big question for me.
Adam Leventhal:What do you think?
Bryan Cantrill:I think we land pretty hybridy where I think that there's a lot of new company formation ends up being remote first for all the good reasons to be remote first. And I think that that alone, will, and I think also you're gonna have I do think that companies are gonna look different in the future. I don't know that we're gonna have these massive 100,000 person tech companies, where you I think you're gonna have more smaller companies. I think that's that's what what makes more kind of sense in the abstract anyway. And so I think it it it's gonna be, I think, hybrid y.
Bryan Cantrill:I think you're gonna have, a lot more. I think some of the stuff is gonna look really really dated in hindsight. I also think that there are gonna be companies that have no RTO mandate. So I think that that these RTO mandates are going to at some level backfire. I don't know if they're gonna backfire quickly enough to kind of give feedback to the folks that that that instituted them.
Bryan Cantrill:You know, one company we have not talked about, do you know the a company that does not have that is that is truly hybrid and has not had any RTO mandate since the
Adam Leventhal:pandemic? NVIDIA. Interesting.
Bryan Cantrill:Is that in yeah. NVIDIA isn't like, oh, that's interesting.
Adam Leventhal:Or how are they doing? I haven't checked. I haven't
Bryan Cantrill:I haven't checked. Are they are they doing okay? I don't know. They are they I don't know. Are they having any success?
Bryan Cantrill:And, you know, that's pretty interesting. And I I think that the I, you know, I I do think we we're gonna have, like, a a qualitative shift, not for the first time. I think we've had a lot of these qualitative shifts. The Internet was a qualitative shift where it's, like, you had, like, companies that got it succeeded, and companies that didn't perished. And I think that, you know, I I don't know that these hyperscalers are I mean, obviously, Amazon's a wildly profitable company.
Bryan Cantrill:I don't know they're in danger of perishing, but I do think that that this approach, this kind of coercion approach is gonna undermine trust to the degree that I I don't I don't know that it's gonna work. I think it's gonna backfire.
Chris:Yeah. I think offices, much like cities, should be inhabited by people who want to be there. So
Bryan Cantrill:That's a that's a very concise way of putting it. That offices, it'd like cities. That they're not because there are are just like because it's an interesting analog because they you know, like cities, the you know, everyone kinda spent a bunch of time trying to flee cities, but actually young people are attracted to cities for a lot of the reasons that you're attracted to something that's got, you know, hustle to it and that's got verve to it, and zeball and chariot races.
Matt Amdur:I think I I think, Brian, like, I I think the RTO stuff, when you say it's gonna backfire, I think you have to look at, like, how is it gonna backfire? Where I think there's some companies that previously have been more focused on innovation and change and driving new things. And for larger companies that conceivably are transitioning away from that to a more stable business and, you know, slow growth and just keep the machine moving forward. I don't know how much it'll backfire. Like, where I think it's gonna hurt people is like, you know, all the things that Amazon said in their memo about like, we wanna have a startup culture, and work fast, and be innovative, and do those things.
Matt Amdur:That's where I think it's really gonna hurt. There are a bunch of places where I don't think that's what they want.
Bryan Cantrill:That's not important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Amdur:Right. And so if for those companies, I I think it may work well because it it'll attract the set of people that they're looking for to go do the job that they want. And so I I think the RTO stuff, I don't know. Like, I I think for some companies, it's it's not gonna be a fad. It's gonna be something that that exists until sort of this generation of people in c positions, ages out, and the next generation decides that this is a company that they wanna work at
Bryan Cantrill:or not. Yeah. Well put. And I think it it is gonna really depend on what you're doing. Doing, and it's gonna there there will be some companies that prove and there's some companies from dress codes make sense.
Bryan Cantrill:Right? I mean, it's like
Adam Leventhal:You know? For Matt any company Matt's at.
Matt Amdur:Yeah. And thank you for the intervention. You know, it's a long time coming, and it's, I have to do some soul searching.
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah. If you wouldn't mind. If you would please reflect on that. I I I assume that we're gonna have at least some future episode only on dress codes with featuring Matt. Like, I'm envisioning, like, fashion plate, Matt, where I can put different outfits on that.
Bryan Cantrill:Is that the
Matt Amdur:I'm I'm game, Brian. You know, I I have to figure out how to how to turn this corner. I think the only other thing here you guys talk about
Bryan Cantrill:Yeah.
Matt Amdur:I'm hearing you talk about sun when you you talk about remote work starting. I also seem to remember that was around the time when cars left outside of building 17 had their catalytic converter stolen. So I wonder if there's a correlation between
Adam Leventhal:No. That that was because there were too few people in the office that said it was, like, semi abandoned.
Bryan Cantrill:Is it okay. Well, sorry. I that that here in the Bay Area, getting your catalytic converter stolen, it's like it'll be like the sun rising. So I don't was there a I had forgotten this. Was there a catalytic converter?
Bryan Cantrill:Oh, okay.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. In fact, that was the place where I heard about catalytic converter thefts first.
Bryan Cantrill:Yes. They like, those thieves were innovators. They were they were ahead of their time.
Adam Leventhal:Was was in the building 17 parking lot now, home to Meta. You're welcome. I'm sure they don't have the same problems. But, like, as people, like, stop I you know, the the remote work was sort of, like, self perpetuating because once you go in a couple times and the people you wanted to see weren't there, then you're like, well, I'm just gonna stay home too. People didn't show up.
Adam Leventhal:They started turning off the lights to save power, and and people's catalytic converter
Bryan Cantrill:started getting stolen.
Adam Leventhal:It was very it was very bleak.
Bryan Cantrill:It was very bleak. It was very bleak. Yes. Well and I think that I mean, I would like to say that that that those thieves really were innovators, and I would like to believe that somewhere there's another podcast going on with catalytic converter thieves reminiscing about Sun Microsystems back in the day, which is like this flightless bird where you could just go you had all the time, all day to just, you know, put it up on jacks, really do it right, you know. But it really and back in the day, there was real attention to the craft of
Adam Leventhal:Jack's. Talk about talk about a podcast I would listen to. That'd be great. Absolutely.
Bryan Cantrill:Al, like, low bar. Well, it's been, I I don't know if this is this has been cathartic, uplifting. I don't know where are we where do we land on this? This has been, I certainly, I think
Matt Amdur:I I would say that that for those folks that
Bryan Cantrill:are going through this, I definitely, heart goes out to folks who have really for whom this is this is really, a challenge for their lives. And I, you know, I think that that this too shall pass in that regard. I think that remote work is here to stay at some level in our industry. So, just, don't let this get you too far down, but, this is, it's it's it's a little bit of a little bit of a downer at the moment.
Adam Leventhal:Yeah. But agree. I think this too shall pass, and I think that companies will distinguish themselves by being remote friendly even as in this trend then, hey, go work for NVIDIA.
Bryan Cantrill:Go work for NVIDIA. And next podcast, we'll have Dave hits on here on RTO on RTO mandates. It will, Dave Lightman will bring back Dave hits.
Adam Leventhal:There we go.
Bryan Cantrill:Alrighty. Thank you everyone. Thank you especially, Chris and Matt. I really appreciate both of you. I mean, it is it it takes real, courage to kinda get up on stage here, although I I I feel that, Matt, I I would like to that your Broadcom overlords should note your praise for Hawk Tan's honesty and your respect for the Broadcom dress code.
Bryan Cantrill:So I would like to explain that to your overlords as they are pouring over to this podcast, that you are actually an obedient servant. You are not a a ne'er do well, a miscreant, a rabble rouser.
Matt Amdur:Just just like that at at the deposition, Brian. That was perfect. That's exactly what I'm looking
Bryan Cantrill:for. There you go. Okay. It's just like that. But would be more appealing or, like, is I okay.
Bryan Cantrill:That sounds good. I'm ready to go. I'm I'm ready to to sign the affidavit that you are you are are welcome, your Octan Overlord. I'm excited about the dress code.
Matt Amdur:Thanks for having me.
Bryan Cantrill:I'm. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Chris.
Bryan Cantrill:Really appreciate it. Thank you, everyone, and thanks for all the the the great comments in the chat. Thanks, everyone. See you next time.
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