On Silicon Valley Bank with Eric Vishria
Awesome. Well, great. Eric, again, thank you so much for for being with us. It has been a wild wild week. I mean, you never wanna say unprecedented, Eric, but I I I think it's fair to say that this is not something we have seen in the start up ecosystem at least in my lifetime.
Speaker 2:Maybe, I don't know, maybe this happened in the seventies
Speaker 3:or something.
Speaker 2:I I I totally agree. And it's also it's funny because everything breaks in a different place. Like, I think one of my big observations is, like, what broke here were, you know, checking accounts with it. But what broke in o eight were money market funds. Right?
Speaker 2:And so, like, it's like it's it's like what, you know, and so we're always fighting the last war and there's always all these other pieces of it. But, yeah, it's it's definitely, it's it's been chaotic.
Speaker 1:It has been chaotic. And, you know, we kinda joke we we use Gusto as our as our payroll provider, and we've always joked about, you know, they have this kinda celebratory email they send you, like,
Speaker 3:oh, you're getting paid today.
Speaker 4:Correct? Like, 18, last of the month. Congratulations. You're getting paid. It's like actually, it it makes me more nervous that you're treating this like something that requires celebration.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like, why are you sending me an email like, holy shit. That worked. Like, that should not be an email that you send me.
Speaker 3:Congratulations. Your money's still here.
Speaker 1:Right. And so we we have made fun of that for as long as we've been at Gusto. It was basically the lifetime of the company. And I would like to formally and on the record apologize to Gusto for treating payroll so lightly. Payroll is something that deserves to be celebrated, and I appreciate that email, and I never appreciated it more than this week when we, we payroll.
Speaker 1:So I wanna give a couple so some context and background, and then, it so a a couple of things. 1, we're obviously talking about the the SVB failure, and subsequent backstop. Yeah. And we're what we're not gonna do is talk about a bunch of the stuff that's already been talked about, we think. Eric, I'm sure you agree, kind of ad nauseam.
Speaker 1:So, we're not gonna talk about, why SVB got into the pickle they got into. We're definitely not gonna talk about, the the the backstop that was provided, by the FDIC. We are, in part because that's been talked about a lot, and also because all of us here are, on stage anyway, are not not gonna disagree with what was I think we all think that that that the the right thing that was done here in terms of making compositors whole. What we do wanna talk about, and I think, Erica, what has not been talked about nearly enough, is the role of banking for start up. And what is because it is weird for start ups.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And in particular, why were so many start ups banking with SVB? So I think for that, I'd like to if you don't mind, I'd like to kick us off, Steve, with you describing the oxide history with respect to banking. And then, in in terms of, like, why we were we and just for the for the record, we are 100% at SVB. I had mentioned this in a Hacker News comment, but we were required to be at SVB as part of a covenant for our venture debt, which we'll get into in a second. And then, Eric, what I'd like to do is use that as a segue, and you can let us know if, like, you know, we're a total outlier or not.
Speaker 1:I think that we are maybe a little bit of an outlier, but I think there are obviously a lot of startups that were in our our same position. So Yeah. Steve, do you want do do you wanna kick us off by taking us back to 2019, and we had start because this is something that is that is hard to understand about startups, makes startups weird. We we start the company on September 9th, 2019, and, with $75100 or whatever it was. Okay.
Speaker 1:But whatever kind of, like, very we we had kinda capitalized it just with the founders with effectively nothing. And But you do need somewhere to put that. You need somewhere to put that. And what we know is that we are about to raise a big seed. So we're we're we were looking to raise a $20,000,000 seed, and we know that we're about to have 1,000,000 of dollars.
Speaker 1:But for a bank, like, that's like, okay. Yeah. Sure, pal. And Yeah. You're starting you're starting with
Speaker 3:a very small deposit, and you've got it. But you've I mean, that's part of found that you can't start the company until you have, you know, written checks against that first set of shares, and and and then you have to go deposit those checks. And so, yeah, we were starting from, you know, where where to go deposit funds. And then, yes, planning that we were gonna have 1,000,000 of dollars we're gonna need to do something with in short order.
Speaker 1:And we initially banked with First Republic.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:Which was on, I think, on advice from actually a a bunch of folks. People. Yeah. The this the one of the myths that I would like to bust is this idea of, like, oh, the VCs made you bank in SVB. Yeah.
Speaker 2:If we only had that kind of power.
Speaker 1:Totally. Exactly. It's like, no. The VCs were but we were talking to entrepreneurs, talking to friends, talking
Speaker 3:to family.
Speaker 1:It's like, okay. We're gonna go back at First Republic.
Speaker 3:And I think the thing that, again, became more apparent a little bit later on, but what we had heard at the time from folks that were founders, were operators, was that First Republic is really cares about start ups. And you it's important. You're kind of impressed upon us, which was not our initial disposition that, like, your banking partner is gonna be a really important partner, certainly, because early on, you're thinking about, well, what the hell are we gonna build? And, you come to learn, especially in hard tech or when you're dealing with hardware that your your banking partner is a very, very, very, very important business. And so early on, it was there's a handful of banks that actually think of start ups as first class citizens, and they actually, care about investing in those relationships.
Speaker 3:And and so on the advice of others, we started with First Republic.
Speaker 1:Started with First Republic. And as I recall, there was a marked difference between our account when it had $75100 in it and our account when we deposited the early close on that 20, which was a $12,000,000 check.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Many more people woke up. Right?
Speaker 1:And I just recall you, like, really have struggling to get the time of day with First Republic, and then and then not so many struggles.
Speaker 3:But but I mean, you know, at least getting it the time of day with First Republic early on versus some of the bigger banks.
Speaker 1:And did we do you actually shop around?
Speaker 3:I
Speaker 1:mean, how much I I can't remember how much shopping around we did for other bags at that time. Cursory. Cursory. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because we're it's not something we focused on.
Speaker 3:It's not a top ten. Right? I know.
Speaker 1:Okay. So we, Start with First Republic. Start with
Speaker 2:First Republic. We did did our raise.
Speaker 1:We did our raise. They go from, again, being, you know, not really treating us very seriously to I just remembered, like, them calling you tickets. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, no. Actually, absolutely. You're gonna go? Of course,
Speaker 1:I was gonna go there. But the they went from the and, you know, someone in the channel had had, dropped in. Mitchell Hashimoto from HashiCorp had his startup banking story. We had, I mean, a kind of a parallel
Speaker 4:hilarious. If you've not read it, like, definitely give it a read. It it slid.
Speaker 1:It it is. And it's and so we all of a sudden, First Republic is, I feel like very shortly after the wire hit, that First Republic is calling you up offering you free things.
Speaker 3:Yes. Yeah. Yes. And and this is not a foreshadowing of, playing into the the the the overspending of, of these banks, but they they definitely we were a VIP very quickly. And in particular, one of the things that they offered was a suite tickets to a suite at a Chainsmokers concert.
Speaker 1:Right. And I just remember you, like, putting on mute, being like, does anyone even want a chainsmoker's? I'm like, take it all. Like, whatever they're offering, take it. Like, we're just, like, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:No. Thank you. Wait. No. Right.
Speaker 1:And so my kids went to a chainsmoker's. My kids went, and I just remember drilling my now 15 year old, then 11 year old, 12 year old. I'm like, who does Oxide Bank with? He's First Republic Bank, First Republic Bank. He's like a First Republic Bank ad, because I think he's gonna go into the suite where he's gonna get quizzed.
Speaker 1:He goes into this, like, huge suite at this at the end, of course, the boys
Speaker 2:were like, oh my god. It was amazing.
Speaker 1:We were right he's like, there was no one in there. And my my now 15 year old is like, dad, I want you to know I ate all the sushi.
Speaker 2:And I'm like Yeah.
Speaker 3:Good. Oh, good boy. Best ROI you can get.
Speaker 1:Exactly. So, anyway, so we were at First Republic for,
Speaker 3:and they're they're terrific. I really, really liked those folks over there. They I mean, again, on the back of having large deposits, sure, but, tremendous service and made it easy for us to focus on the rest of the business. And then a couple years in, we probably a year, year and a half in, we're as, you know, folks that are kind of pre revenue and are trying to get to the next set of milestones are want to do is we are looking at, you know, what are the things that we need to do to extend our run. And Wait.
Speaker 3:I don't
Speaker 1:know if it's the true genesis or not, but this definitely I mean, we had we had heard of venture debt, but, I had a fellow parent at a scout troop. He and I are on a long hike, and he was asking us about fundraising, and he had done, food based startups. So he'd done, Kite Foods and Fork in the Road. And he's like, you guys really need to be looking at venture debt. Like, alright.
Speaker 1:Okay. And I remember then you, like, really, like, what what is venture debt?
Speaker 3:So maybe you wanna explain
Speaker 1:to folks what venture debt is and why it was important to us.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And and maybe even going back further, like, why we originally started out with a disposition, against venture debt.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, when we when we started the company, there there were, you know, there were definitely folks that would warn, I mean, it makes sense. Like, you do you do not wanna pile debt on a company until you have more certainty around cash flow and operability of the business. And, so early on, I think we both had a a disposition of, like, venture debt is not something that, we want to look into seriously. But, anyway so to the question of what is ventured, I'd you know, I'm not the not the foremost expert, but I think just in basic form, It is a product that banks offer where they are the the the payback on the debt is more focused around equity than it is focused around cash flow. So typical loan given to a company is gonna be made based on being paid back on cash flow.
Speaker 3:And in venture debt, it is you know, the bank is getting a good interest return, and then they are getting a they're getting, you know, normally small, but they're getting warrants on the company itself. And, you know, in the cases of companies like Coinbase and Stripe and others, those can be very, very, very Meaningful. Meaningful return type of products. Obviously, it's a riskier, investment, and banks have to, you know, keep more in collateral against those things. But from a bank's perspective, it is probably, ultimately, a way to blend out and get higher returns.
Speaker 3:From a company's perspective, like, why should one want to think about taking on venture debt? You know, again, you wanna extend runway so you can hit milestones so you can raise the next round or, you know, get to that next important step in the business. It is it certainly comes with cautions that you wanna be you wanna be aware of. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Eric, I'm sure you got some venture debt horror stories, out there. But, Eric, do you see venture debt in in kind of early stage start ups much?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, like, the the banking partners, especially SVB, they do try to do and there's others. There's, like, there's Hercules comes to mind and other I I think there are quite a few providers. They do try to do it. I think it's an interesting product for them.
Speaker 2:In general, I discourage it to be honest, and I think you guys are in a very specific situation and there are other companies doing hard tech which are more capital intensive, where it makes more sense and you're kind of trying to get there. In general, for a typical software startup, you know, you would kind of say, like, do the hard thing and, you know, take a down round if you have to take a down round and and move on and make the cuts that you need to make because you gotta operate within that envelope. And so but it always comes up, it's always offered high quality companies with high quality founders, high quality ideas with high quality investors with, you know, high quality founders, like they tend to get a lot of offers for this this venture debt offering and it comes off in there kind of a variety of providers. I think one of the things that Silicon Valley Bank did was just made it really, really easy. And, in addition to some of the things that you were saying at the beginning, which is I mean, people forget this, but, like, it turns out, like, opening a bank if you go to one of the large banks.
Speaker 2:Like, just opening a bank account as a brand new business. I'm doing air quotes here, which you cannot see. But opening a bank account as a brand new business is like not the easiest thing to do. And I think one of the things that both First Republic and Silicon Valley Bank have done very well is just being like they understand that workflow. Right?
Speaker 2:And then they understand, kind of some of the, like, typical things that you'd wanna do. It's like, okay. You're gonna have a a payroll provider. Your payroll provider is gonna be, you know, whatever, Gusto or Rippling or something like that versus, you know, versus ADP. And and, like, and and so just, like, there's just a a bunch of, like, the of getting business going that I think they eliminated because they understood it, and I and I think that was really meaningful.
Speaker 1:It when this is a really important point because there was definitely, I think, in a bunch of the noise that was out there after SVB failure, there was kind of ideas, like, just go open a bank account at JPMC. It's like, you just go open a bank account at JPMC. It's actually not that easy. And it is the this is not I mean, they are used to businesses that kind of grow slowly that have been established, and they are kind of building this nut over time. Not businesses that walk up with a $12,000,000 check and then start whittling it down.
Speaker 1:Like, well, that's going the wrong direction. I mean, it's it's it ends up Totally. You're exactly right. It is hard to actually open an account. People think it's like that's really basic, and it's like not.
Speaker 3:And well, Eric Eric spoke to this, but, I mean, it's it's opening the account is a total pain in the ass. But then you get into just the basic operations of business where you've got vendors to pay, you've got wires to send, you've got, they they they invested in helping make that stuff easier. You could reach out to someone who would actually go do some leg work to help implement these sorts of things or at least give you guidance on making sure that you have things well done. And I'm sorry, but, like, that same email to the b of a person is going unanswered as a start up until you get to a certain point. Now that's that maybe, hopefully, is gonna change in the in the in the backdrop of the last you know, we could call it a last week.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But I know a lot of founders that are still waiting to hear back from JPMC Yeah. That are that did actually get in touch with, you know, Wells or BofA or whoever, and and we're like, oh, man. I'm gonna need a bigger team to go manage my banking relationship.
Speaker 1:And Yeah. So this is also a really important point. You're gonna be very curious about this too because I ultimately, all of this stuff at Oxide, we did not wanna hire we don't wanna hire a corporate treasurer at Oxide. We don't wanna and, like, that, Steve, that has all fallen to you. And the reason you've been able to do it is because we've been able to find partners that have helped us out, but then especially because we've got banking partners that are making it easier.
Speaker 1:And if you gonna like, if we have to go hire someone for this role, that's a real problem for us. Yep. And Eric, does that I mean, I see that's true for most of us.
Speaker 4:I think it's
Speaker 2:totally, totally right, which is, like, you don't the the founders, typically, in the early days, there is no finance or finance savvy person. And and so making it easy, eliminating that friction, not having to deal with it is is hugely advantageous. And we can be even just, like, little simple things that are kind of silly, like, what does it take to send a wire? And, you know, it's that is the kind of thing that is just, like, trivially easy at an SVB or first republic and actually is kind of a pain in the ass at some of the larger banks or candy, if you don't have their attention and and they're not spending time on it. And so I think that's there.
Speaker 2:And by the way, I just want to put a little bookmark on this, but we should just spend a minute at some point and talk about the venture side of it, which actually was important as well and is a totally different, a totally different set of things.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And, Eric, just to before we do that, I think you were just talking about wires and not to get into the weeds on one point. But, wire transfers end up being very important to start ups.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Because start ups don't typically have lines of credit with their vendor ecosystem. So, oftentimes, especially when you are dealing with a supply chain and hardware and, you don't have vendors that are like, no problem. You can just pay me net 30, net 45. You know, oftentimes, you're having to pay upfront before you can get things. And and in the last 2 or 3 years, for us in particular, with the supply chain constraints globally
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We you have to act fast, and you have to pay up front, and wire transfers end up being a big part of that. And if you snooze, you lose on, you know, TI parts or, you know, some some small component that can hold up a big part of our build. And it it it it sounds like a trivial thing. That actually can be a very complicating factor if wire transfers are made difficult for you. And and that was a that was a big plus.
Speaker 1:Well, it is a challenge because you want to be made easy, but it's also scary when they're super easy. Right. Because, like, this is the the company. The, like, the the this is you've worked so hard to go raise these funds. And, like, you know, if you're prerevenue, like, there is no cash coming in.
Speaker 1:So, like, it is gets very nerve wracking. So but, Eric, I wanna take when you say the venture side of this, are you do you mean in terms of the venture firms themselves in terms of where they bank? Or would what what do you elaborate on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think there's a few things. So the first and foremost thing that we were concerned about and we are concerned about is what is entrepreneurial experience. Right? So and for people who don't know, like, when you're working on a financing for a company, it's often in early days, it may be it may be, you know, just 2 or 3 people, and they're working on its financing and the lawyers are going back and forth and and then you're like, okay.
Speaker 2:We're gonna close tomorrow. And it's like, oh, wait. No. There's something. So, no, we're gonna close the next day.
Speaker 2:And so and you have this dynamic where it's like the entrepreneurs are ready to go. We want to deliver an amazing experience to them. And so part of that is just also us being able to, like, close when we need to, and that relates to, like, the legal side of it, and it relates to the the banking side. Like, we we want to be able to call, you know, 5 minutes before the the wire deadline and say, hey. Hit this thing and and close and because that delivers the best experience.
Speaker 2:If there's a bunch of bureaucracy that we have to go through, then that that doesn't deliver a good experience at an entrepreneur at the early days of relationship. And so that's something that we care about. There's another piece of the venture side, which also has been untalked about, which is, you know, venture, partners at venture firms have capital calls. Like, we pay in we're LPs as well as GPs. So we're we're investors in our own funds.
Speaker 2:And we have, and those capital calls can be substantial in in terms of dollar amounts and in particular for people who are earlier in their career or younger partners who may not have the capital, they they used and one of the things one of the products SBB had were these, like, capital call lines, which are basically lines for venture capitalists themselves, or investors themselves to kind of participate in their fund. And then, you know, they basically get paid back as the fund gets paid back. And so, like but just if you go to again, if you go to a normal bank and you're like, hey. I wanna cancel the call line.
Speaker 1:They'll be
Speaker 2:like, what what do you mean you wanna cancel the call line? Are you trying to buy a house or you're trying to buy a car? Right? And, Right.
Speaker 1:It's like, I'm I'm trying to actually fund a start up. Like, okay. Wait. We're definitely not doing that then.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. And so, like and how do they and how do they want that? And there's this institutional knowledge that kinda builds up, which is, you know, and I'm sure they don't offer them to everyone. And and I don't I I don't think any of us use it at the benchmark, but I I think this is a kind of a thing that does come up.
Speaker 2:And, and so you're trying to think of the institutional knowledge around it, which is they'll be like, okay. They have to make they have to make a quality you know, it's a debt. It's it's a piece of debt. Right? And so they have to make a quality judgment on that.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I think if you said, like, okay, there's a a new partner at, I don't know, Sequoia, like, I I think like, again, to the typical bank, it doesn't mean anything, but, like, you know, to Silicon Valley Bank, I think they would understand, like, oh, you know what? Like, cases are where you're gonna chase them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think this person's probably going places. I think this person is probably good for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so
Speaker 4:I think there I
Speaker 3:think there's
Speaker 2:some dynamics there, and and and even with venture capital firms themselves, you know, the people so just the mechanics of this, we a venture capital firm will raise a fund. Let's let's just, for argument's sake, say it's $500,000,000 But we don't our LPs, our limited partners who invest money with us, they don't give us that $500,000,000 upfront. We it gets called. Right? It gets called as you progress.
Speaker 2:And and so, basically, okay, we agreed to make a new investment. We put a capital call out to our LPs, and then they they wire money. And and, you know, people different firms work in different ways. It depends on the funds. You may call it in maybe 5% increments.
Speaker 2:If it's a really big fund, you might call it in 1% increments. And so, you know, you have a $500,000,000 fund, let's make the math easy and say you have, you know, 25 LPs each at 20,000,000. It doesn't really work this way, but make math easy. And, you know, if you're calling that in 5% increments, that's a lot of wire. Like it's a lot of inbound wires and transfers that you're managing that are coming in.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, and then obviously, you're funding companies. And so you make these calls and let's say, as an example, okay, we're we're doing a $10,000,000 round in a company. We have, you know, $8,000,000 of capital that's, like, sitting in the account, in in the fund account, and we're, like, 2,000,000 short. And that 2,000,000 is coming, like, it's coming tomorrow or the next day or whatever as LPs get their stuff together and they they initiate the wires. But, you know, that's, again, another kind of product that that Silicon Valley really understood, which is like, hey.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah. Well, that's a I I forgot what that particular thing is called, but it's like they'll give you that capital that that's not a capital call line. It's a fun line or something.
Speaker 1:And So you are basically giving you a loan on against the it's like a capital call based financing
Speaker 3:for, like Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's brilliant. Exactly.
Speaker 2:And so, like, these are
Speaker 1:Yeah. Interesting.
Speaker 2:But the but the the the larger point against the loans are it's just the mechanics of that thing, which is, like, wow. There's a venture capital firm, and every whatever month or couple months or quarter, they have, like, 30, 40 inbound wires of, like, varying amounts. And then, you know, every month or every whatever, depending on the frequency, these days it might be every week, they have an outbound wire to some new company with a new bank account that has a $100 in it and is about that $12,000,000 in it. And so just like all of those mechanics of, those kinds of transfers and that frequency, I think it just gets lost. You know, it's not it's not quite as simple as, hey.
Speaker 2:It's like we have a checking account. I wrote you a check and, like, now we burn it down. You know, there's there's a lot of flow, I guess, is is the core point.
Speaker 4:Well, and and to the to the familiarity too. Right? They're just totally that they do this all the time. They're familiar with it. I've had, you know, friends who are entrepreneurs who've gone tried to shop other banks, and as folks has alluded to, just kinda struck out, like, not have folks really understand that business.
Speaker 4:Whereas when I was starting a company, you know, our our major backer kinda plugged this into his person at SVB, and everything was easy. There's also you know, we didn't wanna hire a CFO. There's this whole ecosystem of folks who will do that for you and have their own relationships with SVAP and their own familiarity with their tools. And all of these things were easy and let focus folks focus on the hard part of starting the business. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think, you know and, Eric, I love your emphasis too, and it's so interesting to hear. Of course, I didn't know about the capital call based financing, but, of course, it makes a ton of sense. And I just for other people that don't necessarily realize if you haven't started a company, what Eric's talking about about trying to hit a close, when you are closing on financing, it is a high wire act. It just feel at least from our perspective. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Maybe our our experience has been especially, but it's like because you're trying to get everyone to meet at the same time. And you always I mean, it's just as an entrepreneur, you're always going through your head about, like, the things that can go wrong. And any and we've I feel like we've had lots of things go. We we have just seen so many slip ups that are mechanical. And the and as an entrepreneur, you're thinking like my business is hanging in the balance right now.
Speaker 1:I mean, it is terrifying. And so you anything that is gonna be in the way of that is gonna be a real problem. And I think that understanding, you know, in I I I I think you kinda mentioned in passing, but so folks understand that when a VC firm does a capital call, they've got there is an entrepreneur waiting to be funded on the other end of that.
Speaker 2:You're not
Speaker 1:you're not doing cap I mean, yeah. Right, Derek. I mean, I think that's it's my understanding anyway that that's when those capital calls are happening. So, like, any time that we spend kind of dillydallying, you've got a a company that is actually waiting to to to close financing. And I think even, you know, even when you are, you know, wind at the back and things are going great, and, you know,
Speaker 2:quote unquote, we don't need it.
Speaker 1:I always love that little lie that entrepreneurs tell one another, like, oh, yeah. We raised a bunch of people.
Speaker 3:Like, okay. Time.
Speaker 1:Right. Okay. But even even in those situations, that is it's anxiety producing, and you need and and the the mechanics become important. The other thing I would say, and I would Eric, I'd love to get your take on this, but I think it is, you know, people have their own experience with banking based on their own, you know, my my direct deposit, and my checking account, and so on. Banking gets a lot harder when the dollar figures get larger.
Speaker 1:So it this is not something that's like, well, it was easy for a $100,000. Like, there's a difference for a bank between a $100,000, a $1,000,000, $10,000,000, and a $100,000,000. Feels obvious, but it's amazing how many people are like, I don't understand why this is hard for startups because I'm able to go to a bank and open a banking account. It's like, yeah, because the dollar figures are a lot bigger. And it's when the dollar figures are bigger, like, this stuff, like, a bunch of stuff that works when you're small doesn't work when you're when you're big.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. That's correct. Yeah. I think that's right.
Speaker 2:I I think it it's just different when it's a business. And And I mean, you saw some silly criticisms around, well, it's like why do they have more than $250,000 in kind of a standard account? And it's like, well, payroll. Like, you know, payroll turns out to be for a lot of companies of any reasonable size, more than $200,000,000. Then
Speaker 1:what what was the wish.
Speaker 3:Yeah. 399,000. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. I feel like I've never been with our exact payroll figures so well. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, it matters. And so you have, I I I think it does get complicated that way. I think the other thing that, and and, of course, like, you know, there's a person, oh, they're so stupid. They should use sweeps and, like, things like that.
Speaker 2:And it's like, yeah, people use sweeps. Like, it's not yes. Startups have money in sweeps. Startups do those kinds of things. Like, that's not that's not unheard of.
Speaker 2:But but I think there was another thing that, and and tell me if this is where you don't wanna go, but, like, I I I would just say, like, one of the things that did change in the last, I don't know what I guess year is for a long time, it didn't really matter if you use the sweep or you just left it in the checking account because there's no return on the sweep. Like, there was no there was no incremental money to be made. 0% or
Speaker 4:0.0001 percent? Like, which which is Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so it's just like, oh, okay. So so, like, it just didn't matter. And obviously, that has changed, and that and and and companies are generating money. There's a set of companies that are generating more interest income than they are, you know, revenue.
Speaker 1:Because I I that those companies those companies would disgust me. I hope that there's no company is generating more interest when they come in revenue. That would be sickening. I I hope they they should be canceled, those companies. They sound like the worst.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you.
Speaker 4:Yeah. There's a question question in chat. Can you explain the sweep fronts?
Speaker 2:The sweep fronts? Yeah. The sweep. Well, I can explain this as best I understand it. And let me tell you, when you I I started reading the fine prints on on the sweeps very recently.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, you know, a a sweep is basically, it's there's there's a set of different things, but basically, it takes the excess cash that is in an account and puts it in in basically invested. A lot of them work overnight. So it basically sweeps your cash overnight and invests it overnight and returns it in the morning more or less. And in exchange for doing that, you get a little bit of return that you wouldn't get if you just left it in the account.
Speaker 2:That's an example of the Suite. The thing that is important here is when money is allocated to sweeps, and and designated in that way, then the bank isn't, you know and obviously banks work in large pools of money, but the bank isn't then loaning that money out because that money is being invested. Right? And so that money is being used to buy something, a fund of some kind, and you're holding that fund. So that's where that path is going.
Speaker 2:And so one of the things that is changing and started to increase pressure here on all banks, is people are getting return on some of these funds, whether they're treasuries or corporate bonds, there's all kinds of different vehicles. And so they are basically pulling it out, the cash out of checking or savings which banks could previously use to own out and they are buying securities of some kind. And when you buy security, it's kind of goes to a different place on the bank balance sheet. And so there and not again, it gets complicated because some of the sweeps are run by funds by third party funds and some of the sweeps are run by the bank themselves, and, like, where it goes on the bank balance sheet. There was a lot of confusion in that in the last week, which is, like, hey.
Speaker 2:Is my money at risk Right. Because it was on a SVB sweep, or is my money not at risk because it was in a third party, you know, whatever Vanguard sweep or whatever it is. And so Yeah.
Speaker 3:Eric, so for us to make it concrete, just for the listeners, so we we had our deposits with SVB, and we had a percent of those that were you know, oftentimes, the banks will have kind of a blended, product where you're getting, you know, x return on your money. And we had a percent of it that was on SPB's balance sheet and then a percentage of it, which was actually with BlackRock under Oxide's name. And that's the that that that's the money market fund that that that, that Eric's alluding to that, you know, your money gets swept into, and that has got our name on it. And and that is a much more secure end vehicle than just sitting on a bank's balance sheet.
Speaker 1:As we discovered. As we discovered. Because that those funds would were gonna be effectively made whole made made whole. Yeah. There there was under under no scenario where this funds not be made whole.
Speaker 1:But the but it was 2008. I was just gonna say I mean, so this is an important thing. It's like people if you're doing this to keep things absolutely secure, it's like, well, there's there's not necessarily absolute security here. And you can have a and we have seen I've seen we have seen several in our lifetime, and I certainly you know, 2,021,001, and obviously in 2,008, where things, came unspooled very, very quickly, where the things that you think are actually completely robust or or, you know, we came very close to in March of 2020 to the commercial paper market shutting down. And if the the, you know, that's another one where people, because people rely on the established companies very much rely on those commercial paper markets functioning correctly.
Speaker 1:And if they don't, all of a sudden, things get real sticky for a lot of folks. And I I think that, you know, the the this is mechanically really, really challenging. It's not anyone saying to just use a sweep. It's like, it's not just use a sweep. Like, there's you gotta take this stuff apart.
Speaker 2:And it sounds like sweeps are not FDIC insured. Like, this is a really important point. Right? Like, they're not FDIC insured. And and so, you know, or whatever.
Speaker 2:So anyways, yeah. Yes. There's there's real complexity in it and startups were definitely concentrated at SVB for a bunch of reasons that we've talked about in terms of their understanding, of the startup ecosystem needs.
Speaker 1:And, you know, I mean, I guess this varies by startup, but I think for most startups, certainly for us, for a for a capital intensive startup, like the cash we've raised, we are very, very conservative with. We wanna be maximally conservative with. And so the the there's kind of the this myth that, like, startups themselves were somehow being chancy with their cash. Like startups do not wanna be chancy with their cash. They do not they want to focus on doing this outlandish thing that they're trying to do.
Speaker 1:And they they they wanna make sure that the cash they've raised is the cash that's there. So they are looking for any path that is going to be now that said, I know, Steve, you definitely did encounter some other entrepreneurs that were, going oh, that were literally going back and forth with Bitcoin to make payroll. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:I I mean, just through the arc of what was a pretty intense Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday for, I think, all, but certainly those with deposits at SBB where, you know, as of Thursday night, things were, you know, already SBB stock had crashed, and and and there was a bunch of questions on what the outcome was gonna be. And everyone was saying, oh, they're gonna get acquired. And then Friday morning, the FDIC steps in and, and takes over the bank. Fast forward to Saturday morning, and and I'm I'm on the sidelines of one of my kids' basketball games. And, of course, all the all the discussion in in the parent groups is what's happened, in the banking system just generally.
Speaker 3:But one dad in particular was asking, like, oh, Steve. Yeah. We're we're we're, where does Oxide Bank? You know? Probably not SPB.
Speaker 3:It's like, oh, here we go. Another one of these.
Speaker 1:Another one of these. I just got off the phone with my mom. Right. I guess I'm gonna do this right. It's you're going, let's do it again.
Speaker 3:And, and and I said, no. Yeah. We we could bank with SPB. Oh, gosh. That that's gotta be awful for you.
Speaker 3:Like, thanks. That's that's also helpful. Yeah. But and, and and he's like, yeah, I would never put our company's money in the traditional banking system. And I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1:in the traditional banking system. You you're you're not a trad banker? So term payroll?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Tell tell so what do you guys do? And he's, you know, he's already you can tell he's given this speech a bunch in the prior 48 hours. And Yeah. He he informed that, that they keep all of their deposits in crypto and that they and I was like, okay.
Speaker 3:That's pretty I mean, that that's bold.
Speaker 4:That's volatile. Working out. Right.
Speaker 3:Well, so and he's and and then, and he's and I was like, what do you do for payroll? Because I I think that's an area I I don't understand that well in terms of how you would then make do payroll out of crypto. And he's like, well, no. I mean, we go through a bank, so we will convert from the stablecoin to USD, and then we will pay payroll out of that. Stablecoin do you use?
Speaker 3:I asked.
Speaker 2:And I asked.
Speaker 1:It turns out Banquets. Stablecoin that
Speaker 3:he uses has $3,200,000,000 at SBB.
Speaker 1:Right. So I I think you're struggling to make payroll on Monday too, pal.
Speaker 3:He's like, oh, it's just barely off the peg. It's gonna recover. Like, okay. Back to basketball.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Eric and Eric, I don't know if you've got other, but it's when start ups reach out to you for their advice on this stuff, I mean, because it especially now, I mean, how are you counseling startups kinda change their thinking? And actually, let me I'll make my question a little bit more specific because, you know, I mentioned at the top, but we were banking with SVB exclusively by covenant. So we have we do got venture debt with SVB. That that venture debt was very important for us.
Speaker 1:It was it allowed us to, extend our runway at an important time and and allowed us to, very grateful for it. It was it was it was absolutely the right decision for us. But that that actually in fact, they also wanted our credit cards to be an SBB. Right? I think you negotiated that part
Speaker 3:out if I recall. Wrong. And and and that was a pretty easy negotiation when I asked them if they use the SBB credit cards.
Speaker 1:I think that's Because,
Speaker 3:it is a that's not a good experience. If we're if we're talking about, like, things you're good at, like, do what you're you know, stick stick with what you're good at. Right. The there are companies like Ram and Rex and bunch of others that again, not to go into we won't go delve into this, but there's a bunch of things that you want when you have employees, a a number of employees that are that are needing charge accounts to operate. And companies like Ramp get it, and they make it very, very easy.
Speaker 3:There's a bunch of things you you can go through as as to why that is the case. And, by the way, I will I do wanna make a plug for Ramp because,
Speaker 2:man, when you when you're in
Speaker 3:a situation, I mean, the very, very first thing that every single founder was thinking about is, like, making payroll. Yep. And, and that was first and foremost. But then there's the little things that that crop up almost immediately, which is on Friday, when there was the the very real chance that SVB depositors were not gonna have access to their funds for some period of time. Companies like Ramp or any other credit any other card company that gives you a line of credit that you charge against each month, They they have integrations via, like, plat or something else, and they do pings every single day.
Speaker 3:And they know when you have an active account on the other end of the line or not. And when you pinged SVB on Friday, you did not have an active account on the other
Speaker 1:end of the line. And so it I
Speaker 3:mean, I don't wanna say it would have been a reasonable, but I I would not have been stunned if, you know, these these companies shut us off. Got companies off or at least lowered credit lines Yeah. For for companies. And all of a sudden, we we have we had folks traveling that weekend that were that were, kind of going to meet with, a partner of ours, a manufacturing logistics partner, and they very well could have had their cards not go through. Right.
Speaker 3:And and then what are you doing? You're asking your employees to put it on personal credit cards over the weekend? Like, you'll get it back when yes. These these token. So, anyway, I just wanna say ramp, Ramp cap not only did not shut off their, their customers' accounts, they didn't take down their credit lines.
Speaker 3:They kept the credit lines where they were, which gave these companies a bunch of flexibility while they're trying to figure out things like payroll.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that was that that was great to see.
Speaker 1:And, Eric, I'm sure you spent the weekend with your portfolio companies figuring out where they were and helping them, arrange for because I I I feel that there was a lot. And we certainly we felt all there was heroics on the part of our investors making sure that we could make payroll. And it was I I feel like people did not see this. What they saw were kind of, like, the all caps, like, tweets that were out there. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And what they didn't see were the VCs who were behind the scenes stepping up and saying, hey. Like, I, yeah, I'm gonna make a wire commitment, which is I mean, this is not light. And, I mean, I'm I'm sure you are I'm sure it's a very busy weekend for you in that regard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think, you know, it it was, and and and, obviously, and, thankfully, in in a way, it was not necessary. I think there were I know a number of people, venture capitalists, and I think some of the founders who had had prior success who personally fronted money to make payroll. There were firms who had abilities to accounts elsewhere that were able to do that, and there were a bunch of cases like that. So I think people were really it's one of the things that makes the ecosystem very special, actually, is people are trying to help each other and sort it out and work through it and you have a sense that things will come back around.
Speaker 2:And so, I think that's really special. In terms of how I'm advising companies, over the course of Thursday, my perspective changed a bit, where I was trying to reduce the panic, and but we're fiduciaries at the end of the day as well. So my advice ended up being have 6 months somewhere else, 6 months of runway somewhere else. Mhmm. And so if you were at SVB, I was like, have 6 months of runway somewhere else so that you have continued to be operate, but beyond that, don't contribute to the panic.
Speaker 2:That was my that would contribute to the run. I and and that was kinda my my line. And I got you know, I think, luckily, not everybody people were in different situations, and not everyone could open an account fast enough If they didn't have a second account somewhere or even to link accounts is not, like, really easy, and, you know, wires were getting clogged and things like that. But, at least 2 or 3 of the companies I work on, I guess, 3 were able to execute some version of that strategy very quickly. And, you know, and so, like, that was kind of the the advice you gave.
Speaker 2:My new perspective, at least for the time being right now, because I do think it's not I really don't think it's limited to SVB, although they're the first. I think there will continue to be pressure on other banks as we're seeing. And, and I I I do think the risk is quite real, and I I'm kind of astonished actually people don't play it. It just makes sense. People are finding return elsewhere.
Speaker 2:They're going to take money out. And I mean, you've kind of seen that, is to have a large banking partner, you know, one of the SIBs, the strategically important banks, and have a regional partner who's very high service and have an account at each or have an account at each, have them pre linked and and and fluid so that you're set to go in terms of the linkages on them and can move very fast. That's that's kind of my near term advice, which I think gives you the best of both worlds where you have a primary you have a partner who cares about you, who understands your business, etcetera, and what you're trying to do, but you also have a very, like, safe place to keep money. And I just think, you know, startups are risky enough. Like, we could collapse of of the banking system shouldn't be an additional risk.
Speaker 2:And so that's how I've been thinking about it for for the time being.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, of course, as a moderate and compromised position, I'm sure you managed to just piss everybody off with that.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I I tried to do that. Yeah. I tried to do that.
Speaker 1:But the yeah. That's that's interesting. And certainly, so when we negotiated our venture debt, I said we we got we were able to get credit cards, the gum type, basically,
Speaker 3:everything else had to bank with SVB. All deposits, yeah, had to be with with SVB.
Speaker 1:Do you think that those provisions I mean, we are, certainly in future venture debt partners, that is not a provision that we that provision was basically presented to us as nonnegotiable. Do you think that that that provision is gonna be is gonna have to be negotiable for venture debt to live as an instrument?
Speaker 2:I, you know, I think people are gonna have to be a little more flexible about it, in terms of, like, you know, we wanna be your primary banking relationship, but not your, you know, exclusive or whatever. Like, there's gotta be some, like, there's gonna have to be some flexibility, in that. So that'd be my guess is is where it lives is is it softens a bit because I I just don't think anybody reasonable any reasonable board would say, like, hey. Go for it. You know?
Speaker 2:It looks like that's what it's like. That just seems like imprudent in the in the current environment.
Speaker 1:Well, in in that level of risk is certainly very new. I mean, as recently as a week a week ago, Monday, if you'd been like, hey. I'm gonna spend a bunch of time, like, opening up a bunch of your bank accounts because I think SVB is gonna fail. I mean, a board would have been like, what? Excuse me?
Speaker 1:Like, don't don't you have a business do you not have enough to do? I mean, it's like do you sorry. And so that is it. I think this is a, you know, it's certainly a a new problem for people. I do think also, like, there the one of the challenge with the the systemically important banks is they just don't get the startup model, because it is this inverted model where you take this huge amount of cash when you are not established at all.
Speaker 1:And it it it is not a model that the traditional banking system is. It just doesn't know how to deal with it. And and it's just interesting to hear that it doesn't know how to deal with it on the venture side either. Like, we need a bunch of things out of the mechanics that we just are it's gonna be hard to get that out of the and I'm I'm hoping we're hoping that SVB it's I guess they're gonna I work. What are they are they the now the the First National Bank of Santa Clara?
Speaker 1:What are what what are
Speaker 3:they calling themselves? And and also, like, Bridge Bank. Like, they called themselves it's the it's the Bridge.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And
Speaker 3:it's like, there's another There's
Speaker 1:there's another bridge bank out there.
Speaker 3:Like, and then they're the then they were, like, SBBNA. So I think they're they're still trying to figure that out. They filed for bankruptcy this morning, and as a as another step. And their their path forward I mean, from from speaking with them, they certainly have the confidence of ongoing operations. They've alluded to actually more deposits coming in than things going out, because there may be the sentiment out there that it's one of the safest places to bank right now, with with the current structure.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, we're we're like like many. I'm sure, Eric, like the companies you're working with, we're we're trying to figure out what the right cash management strategy is that is not going to be single sourced in
Speaker 1:and and and, Eric, can you speak to the importance of relationship here? Because I know for us, speaking personally, like, the relationship we had with SVB, and not from, like, a you know, from the perspective of, like, concert tickets for my kids and and draining a sushi bar.
Speaker 3:But what was the fact that the folks that we met in 2020 when we started talking to them had already been at SBB for 10 years and are still the entire same team. And they would be there. You know? They they they would and probably, hopefully, will be there, you know, in in the future. But I think that, like, you could tell that there's a lot to be said for a team that's investing in getting to know your business and what you need.
Speaker 3:And,
Speaker 2:I think that's right. I think that's exactly right. And and and we'll we'll see on the venture side too. You know, some of the big banks are saying the right things. It remains to be seen.
Speaker 2:We have to see it. We have to see it and in order to you know, on the venture side, I I mean, again, people just don't realize this, but, like, in Affirm, there are a whole bunch of different funds and those they're just different vehicles. And so it's just it's a huge it's actually quite a large even for a small firm like ourselves. It's a relatively large number of accounts, and that all have to be replicated in different places and things. And so, you know, like, we'll see we'll see if they can they can, if they deliver.
Speaker 2:And I think people want the business, for sure, because, you know, while most startups don't work, obviously, we have our fair fare that do work and and and turn into really big businesses. And I think people like the banks want that business. And so are they gonna put the effort into learning it? We'll we'll find out. And what becomes best CVV as a partner?
Speaker 2:I I I don't know. I'm hopeful that SVB and First Republic in some form continue, but but it remains to be seen.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah. And I I think it also should be said about the way they handled it in terms of, like, in the trenches, boots on ground, the way SVB handled this. I mean, they they were Steve, I couldn't believe the number of conversations you were having with them on Thursday Friday. I'm like, they're still picking up the phone, like, on Saturday. Yeah.
Speaker 1:On Saturday. It's like
Speaker 3:we're texting back and forth on Saturday, and this these are people who have no idea if they still have a job.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 3:They they they have an some sort of an offer from the FDIC of continued employment for 45 days with no guarantees thereafter. And to your point, I mean, they not only picking up the phone, like, following up and saying, hey. Here's here's what I know. Here's and and, you know, obviously, like, we're going through a roller coaster over these days because Thursday night, they're gonna get bought. Friday morning, FDIC comes in, and good news, you've got maybe access to $250,000.
Speaker 3:Then, like, rumors of well, it but, I mean, like, pretty trusted sources that were saying they've already started selling off assets of the bank. Right. And and what any, what any, you know, company is trying to figure out is, like, how when will I have what access to my cash? And there was it was you know, the the the the feedback was like, well, you're gonna get a you're gonna get some sort of a you're gonna get maybe 30%, maybe 40% of your deposits that'll be available within a couple of weeks, no longer than a month. And then you're gonna get, you know, upwards to, on a lower end, 90% of your total deposits over the next 18 months if this bank, you know, ends up getting dissolved and assets are sold.
Speaker 3:And just, you know, of course, what you're also trying to to deal with is all, you know, the employees that are like, oh, I'm gonna get paid. I'm getting questions from friends and family. You know? Oxide, what's what's next? And having someone you know, the hardest thing would have been if SVP was just phones down.
Speaker 2:Totally. And you're amazing job. Amazing job.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It did an amazing job. The the the people the workers on, you know, the employees and the workers there at that that SGB and First Republic, and I think may many of the other banks maybe as well, but obviously, SGB was the the heart of it. They did an amazing job across the board. And obviously, I'm not talking about the management that made the made the risk decisions that they make.
Speaker 1:Right. But the but the folks that were and and these are people that are that, again, they don't know their own futures. They've they've got their own net worth has certainly taken a hit. We talk about equity holders being taking a bath. It's that includes plenty of employees
Speaker 2:for sure. 100%. 100%.
Speaker 1:And and for those people who are in that to to to realize that the what what I need to do right now is focus on these of my customers that need to pay payroll. It speaks highly to me and and that is the it it honestly is emblematic of what we need as startups out of the sector. I also think that like the other thing that I just want to just to get out there is that I know, you know, people paint startups with kind of a single brush, and I, there are, and maybe, maybe we have done a a a disservice by not, like, actively muzzling some people that are giving the rest of us a bad name. But there are startups there are startups out there, emphatically. There are startups out there that are solving hard and important problems.
Speaker 1:And, Eric, I would I from my perspective, the ones that are most likely to meet this kind of relationship are the ones solving the hardest problems and the biggest problems. I mean, the if you got a company that's capital intensive that's solving a hard like, those are the ones that actually and I think we all want we we want to encourage those societally. And, you know, so we you know, we're not all Theranos, actually. We've got Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Totally. Yeah. We're not all Theranos, and and there are definitely there will be Theranos won't be the last fraud, and there'll be more. And I and I also think, to be honest, like, it's not always clear which problems are really are are actually really important or which solutions are gonna end up being really important and which ones aren't.
Speaker 2:And I think that's part of the adventure of of of startups. And and so I'm I'm it's good to have innovation. We want this part of the ecosystem, and we we want lots of companies and lots of people pursuing ideas and pursuing dreams. We you know, it it actually matters. Like, smart people taking on a big idea and putting everything into it, it's not always gonna work.
Speaker 2:It's often not gonna work, and that's okay. And I think that's one of the amazing things about, Silicon Valley is, like, that's okay. And there will be some runaway successes, and the talent will compound to the runaway successes, which is also okay and part of the process. And so I'm, like, I'm I'm very bullish and optimistic on the ecosystem overall. This was it's it's been a tumultuous week, but I think it's a lot there's a lot of goodness and a lot of, hopefully, better risk managements and other things will come out of it.
Speaker 2:But overall, I I do believe the system is quite resilient, so I'm I'm optimistic.
Speaker 1:Totally. And I would just encourage folks to look for some of the the because again, in my experience, the best ones out there, the best startups, the best VCs are are were quietly going about making sure that they made payroll. They were they're really they're they're not that they are, so it is it is tempting to focus on those loudest voices, and you really shouldn't. You you really needed to go, because there's there's and part of the reason I feel that, like, that companies like Ramp and Gusto also did a did a terrific job, and, you know, part of the reason these startups, and you're you you mentioned it earlier, of startups helping other startups, because we've all collectively been there. And I I think that it is something that is really special in this ecosystem it's an important part societally.
Speaker 1:And, you know, I I assure you that we are so that many of us are very societally engaged and and are very cognizant of the role that that that we play, and we are in this because we are are trying to improve the world that we live in. So the and banking is a really it's an important and mechanic if mechanical, but a very very important part of it. So Totally. Eric, thank you very much for for joining us on this. I really really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:If for those who are unfamiliar with you, and I I don't know if it's, the if you recommend this on your own behalf, but if if folks are unfamiliar with Benchmark or unfamiliar with you personally, I would one stop shopping is the acquired podcast on I don't know how that was received within the firm, Eric, but I thought that was a, in particular, you all at Benchmark let the acquired podcast sit in on one of your kind of of your your your famous dinners. And, it was just a tremendous listen. So it's a great way to get to know get to know the firm. I I I I hopefully, that was well received within the firm as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We, you know, we we try to do one marketing thing every 5 to 8 years. So, that was our whether
Speaker 4:you need it or not.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That was our that was our one. And so, I'm done. You know, I'm I'm glad it, I'm glad you liked it. It was it it like it or hate it, it was it was very authentic.
Speaker 1:Well and
Speaker 3:it was
Speaker 4:It was awesome, Eric. It was it was great. And for folks, I highly recommend it's like a 2 hour episode. Definitely recommend it. And before you do that, we listen to the 4 hour episode just extolling the virtues of benchmarks of both you know, that's a 6 hour block, but but set it aside.
Speaker 4:It was excellent.
Speaker 2:What did it Nobody should've done that much thought, but, yes. Okay. You could have one and a half speed.
Speaker 4:One and a half speed. Yeah. Turn it down to 4 hours.
Speaker 1:I thought it it it was terrific. And, you know, the I I our experience it it it definitely fit with our experience. And, you know, again, you you've been you're one of the great ones out there, and really appreciate your perspective on this. And, you know, I I think that people should learn more about about your perspective. And I think, know that other VCs look to you as a model, both you personally and the firm, and that's, it's good for Ball.
Speaker 1:As they say, it's good for the industry. So, thank you very much for for leading out there.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you guys, and thank and thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. It's, hopefully, this, we won't have to do one of these next week. Sure. And it'll be a a quiet normal week, building, making payroll, and, and having power in Internet for the entire week.
Speaker 2:Amen. Alright. Exactly.
Speaker 4:If we can precedent at times, it'd be great.
Speaker 2:Alright, guys. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:And thanks, Eric. Take care.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:Thanks, everyone.
Creators and Guests
